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The Role of the Church in Instituting Martial Law

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Post by Sonshine on Mon May 18, 2009 5:13 am

pepperens wrote:With that said...The White House and Gibbs said Obama did not bow to King Abdullah. They said he grabbed both the mans hands and because he (Obama) was taller it appeared that he bowed. My husband is 6'6 and works with a man that is 5'2. He has never had to bend his body down to shake his hand or if he grabbed both hands to shake. The ongoing joke at his work is that he is Aragorn keeper of the hobbits. lol! [/color]


I actually can see both scenerios in all honesty , and have witnessed both.
I am a short person, and the Rabbi six feet four ( and other tall people I know around six feet)when greeting me can appear to be bowing - I have even seen bended knee. My old doctor did that - he had the gift of a healer, and he was a very tall man and greeted many people this way - it was a personable way of greeting to make better eye contact.
There are others who greet me just as differently - standing tall and casting their eyes downward.
Both situations can be read differently and seen differently, and I don't take any of these things in any heavy account. Human body language protocol has can have a lot of leeway. I see different tall people do different things account for height just as short people - Napoleonic complex is real - and extreme end of it.
I don't sit and make excuses, but am very careful when spreading these accusations , because I know how focus and bias takes things way out of control. Generally , I make a mental note , and also take note which crowd is spreading which rumors and go somewhere in the middle Smile

I would agree with you, except I have not seen him bow to others, or bend that low. I'm sure he has met other short people. What he did was bow.

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Post by Marie on Mon May 18, 2009 5:24 am

I'm really glad that we talked about lashon hara. I practiced it this morning when I went to church. I had NEWS about two of our members.. one has decided to retire, and his wife is going to quit her job.. but I kept quiet. I thought they can tell people themselves, instead of me blabbing about it lol.. It was good practice!! And I need it! haha

(if you are having problems with quotes, try this: put << and >> before and after the quoted passage.. ) Smile
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Post by pepperens on Mon May 18, 2009 5:57 am

I'm really glad that we talked about lashon hara. I practiced it this morning when I went to church. I had NEWS about two of our members.. one has decided to retire, and his wife is going to quit her job.. but I kept quiet. I thought they can tell people themselves, instead of me blabbing about it lol.. It was good practice!! And I need it! haha

Hi Marie, when there are multiple quotes it just gets too difficult to work with in the board's HTML reply - the <<>> is what I am mostly used to- so you are right that tends to work better . So I take each part into separate posts because sometimes they end up becoming separate focus anyway Smile Cool

Lashon Hara is interesting isn't it ?
It is a great study, and it at least gives a person an advantage in understanding the why's behind a specific law- even hypothetical. I might ask myself - now why do they say that ? ....and consider the circumstances . It really does make sense . I ask myself how it applies to other situations.
What I have seen with the rumor spreading on the internet, it really has gotten out of control . People take every little thing as fact, but refuse to consider context- this is the biggest problem.
Even when I point out the source of where something is a straight out rumour, I have even had people tell me - well I am sympathetic to their point of view so I will spread it anyway or allow it.
It just isn't o.k.
We all might do some of this in our lives, but I believe it has become much bigger than ever.
What is especially helpful in reading about this is realizing the effect if there is a very small chance something is not true.
Think of the damage this does.
Some people need to look more within and realize maybe they *want* to do damage, and that is what some of this is about.
It is definitely the case in some of the blogs I see.

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Post by Marie on Mon May 18, 2009 6:14 am

..and the New Testament has plenty to say about the evils of the tongue! As far as politics goes, I don't really know what to think, except some very strange things happen which are different from protocol.. Again, I'm observing at this point... I don't trust Obama, but politics is very tiring right now.. am mostly not watching or listening or reading about it.
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Post by pepperens on Mon May 18, 2009 6:36 am

Marie wrote:..and the New Testament has plenty to say about the evils of the tongue! As far as politics goes, I don't really know what to think, except some very strange things happen which are different from protocol.. Again, I'm observing at this point... I don't trust Obama, but politics is very tiring right now.. am mostly not watching or listening or reading about it.

I agree its good to keep an eye on things - most certainly.

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Post by pepperens on Mon May 18, 2009 6:44 am

<<<and the New Testament has plenty to say about the evils of the tongue!.>>

Exactly, I think that there is a lot of study and compatability between both the new and old.
I find much more thorough ethical study in Judaism regarding some things, and some Quakers and Anabaptist groups.
Sometimes I find less of it in others , but that is at quick glance, I know this is not always the case .
Of course I have not experienced every branch out there either. Wink

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Post by Cotton Picker on Mon May 18, 2009 8:03 am

pepperens wrote:
Cotton Picker wrote:
callin' me boy... Don't bother me in the least...

Yes, this is innapropriate - considering it did not appear anywhere else in the entire dialogue.
And that would be..... Your opinion....
pepperens wrote:
Cotton Picker wrote:
It's not gossip... When it is obvious in both photographs and film... That Obama "bent the knee"... In other words.. he genuflected to a foreign monarch... And in so doing, effectively made the entire USA, King Abdullah' servile footstool..

IT is still lashon hara, and still gossip in the context of interpretation .
And this also would be.. Your opinion...

From where I am standing.... Lashon hara... Is highly subjective to the relative perception of the individual... Therefore, even individualy postulating that someone, outside of oneself is guilty of it... Is in fact, demonstrating ones own guilt of having engaged in lashon hara....

Internet discussion forums are not courts of law... As long as someone holds themselves to discussion and dissent, within the context of the OP and stated administative protocol....Guilt or innocence of lashon hara, becomes much... Like beauty... In the eye of the beholder....
.

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Post by My1SqueakyShoe on Mon May 18, 2009 8:57 am

Will you people speak English!!!!!!!!!! I have been trying my best to follow this subject..... But I give up...... hahahahahaa
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Post by 7dawn on Mon May 18, 2009 11:05 am

Hi Dawn, still figuring out these quote things

The quote thing is easy, but you have to click the reply button and not do the quick reply. I copy and paste, then highlight and then hit the quote button...Voila! Same thing if I want to change color on what I type or what I have in quote I highlight and then choose the color.

I actually can see both scenerios in all honesty , and have witnessed both.

Susan, all I can say is for you to Google the video. I have an aunt that I am almost a foot taller than she is. I do not bend that much when grabbing her hands, maybe when I hug her but not when helping her walk or holding her hands. The man bowed and denied it. He was bent over at the waist! I appreciate you taking the time to try and look at both sides, I have to and I can only come to the conclusion that the man bowed.

I am a short person, and the Rabbi six feet four ( and other tall people I know around six feet)when greeting me can appear to be bowing - I have even seen bended knee. My old doctor did that - he had the gift of a healer, and he was a very tall man and greeted many people this way - it was a personable way of greeting to make better eye contact.

When they bow or bend knee to greet you are you looking at the top of their heads? Honestly....Watch the video. He may have not meant to do it, but if that was the case it would have been better had he said I did bow to King Abdullah. I was unsure of the protocol. If you watch the video carefully, King Abdullah is extending his hand to compensate for Obama's height and when they shake hands the king's hand drops down by his waist and the king is looking down at Obama's head. Then, after the bow, they are still shaking hands and Obama is standing at full height....

There was this stuff about Bush and hand holding with another political figure, and I thought the whole thing also was ridiculous rumor mongering and refused to participate


If I recall correctly, it was also with King Abdullah and he and Bush were walking and holding hands, which is customary. It shows a sign of friendship and respect and a show of equals. And if Obama had done that it would have been acceptable. Yes, I voted for Bush....I don't agree with everything he did, but he was better at admitting when he made a faux pas...This is an agree to disagree topic. Watch the video closely and then let me know what you think. Run it in slow-mo if you can. The man bows....Do I know his intent? No, I don't....I do know what it tells the Arab people, especially the terrorists...Did he make a mistake? Intentional mistake? I don't know. Intentional or unintentional, he didn't need to deny that he bowed.

Alas...I will be locking this thread in a few days and reopening two different topics, Politics and the Church and one called To bow or not to bow...That is the question. Very Happy

I am locking it because we managed to get WAY off topic.

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Post by 7dawn on Mon May 18, 2009 11:06 am

Will you people speak English!!!!!!!!!! I have been trying my best to follow this subject..... But I give up...... hahahahahaa

I will be locking it in a few days. We are speaking English...rotflol!

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Post by Sonshine on Mon May 18, 2009 11:21 am

LOL Well Dawn, you wanted to get something going. I figured this topic would be just the ticket to launch you appropriately. Now it's up to you to keep topics coming. Smile

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Post by 7dawn on Mon May 18, 2009 11:36 am

LOL!!! I am working on it....I have a few ideas. muwaaahaahaaahaaaa

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Post by pepperens on Mon May 18, 2009 10:14 pm

Dawn, I simply don't agree with the interpretation in your post , I see both Bush and Obamas scenerios as cultural, both were subtle issues, both as subtle diplomacies .
As I said before, there is too much nit picking in the internet blog media sphere, and people thrive on it like a drug. I watched the video, and I see it possible in both ways.
I know over time, some try to resort to personal attacks when one does not interpret the same, and that proves all the more the partisanship in the views, and the suspicious subjectivity of it.
I think though ,some individuals have moved to bring a lot of this conversation into a constructive rhelm of exploring the moral and ethical values of what evil tongue does, and that is an important value to explore .

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Post by pepperens on Mon May 18, 2009 10:17 pm

Susan, all I can say is for you to Google the video.

Here is the evidence that we are not all reading each other's posts.
I stated quite a few times I viewed all the Lashon Haras in the "news" and blogospheres that contained the videos.

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Post by pepperens on Mon May 18, 2009 10:41 pm

I think the original topic was another article trying to claim the "government" is trying to institute some kind of martial law through churches.
But, there was no evidence provided, so I really could not see what this was about - unless it was presenting a hypothetical possibility.
So , I approached it as hypothetical and how on many levels it would not make sense unless a church "leader"allowed it , but it can stop at each individual and their choice .
Now choosing a cooperative martial law across the board among all citizens , for safety would make sense?
The government has no authority over my personal spiritual life and in the end it is my choice - perhaps a difficult one if there is a Nazi era. This is why the government must stay out of the churches and people positive moral and ethical choices as much as possible.
The conversation led to ....Somehow by maintaining the separation of church and state by not standing in front of faith symbols which is non-government involvement , -somehow this was also a problem.
So the original article to me and the claim didn't make a lot of sense in a country where we do have the appropriate boundaries as long as they are maintained - but it is a good hypothetical scenerio to consider when one looks at history and where Government did fly church banners or islamic banners, roman pagan banners, Greek banners, or any oppressive entity claiming to do it for God, or idols or what have you, and did plenty of genocide .

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Post by Cotton Picker on Mon May 18, 2009 10:51 pm

pepperens wrote:
Dawn, I simply don't agree with the interpretation in your post , I see both Bush and Obamas scenerios as cultural, both were subtle issues, both as subtle diplomacies .
And that would be.... Your opinion....
pepperens wrote:
As I said before, there is too much nit picking in the internet blog media sphere, and people thrive on it like a drug.
And that would be.... Your opinion....Or, your lashon hara, as the case may be...
pepperens wrote:
I watched the video, and I see it possible in both ways.
And that would be... Your opinion...
pepperens wrote:
I know over time, some try to resort to personal attacks when one does not interpret the same, and that proves all the more the partisanship in the views, and the suspicious subjectivity of it.
And that would be.... Your opinion....Or, your lashon hara, as the case may be...
pepperens wrote:
I think though ,some individuals have moved to bring a lot of this conversation into a constructive rhelm of exploring the moral and ethical values of what evil tongue does, and that is an important value to explore .
The tongue is not evil, in and of itself... It is the overflow of what comes out of the heart, that serves to make the tongue evil..

I am also inclined to disagree with the Rabbi and his pillow... Just because a feather blows by and gets caught in my hair... Does not indicate that I am forced to leave it there..

If we are like a dam, that stores up everything we hear.... We will burst under the pressure of superfluous information... However, if we use a net, to seine out what is worth keeping, from what is trash... We will allow the pillow feathers of life to just blow on by... That is, unless we are stuffing our own pillow of bitterness and resentment...

As has been wisely stated... "Never explain".... "Your friends don't need it"... "And your enemies will not believe it anyhow"...

.

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Post by pepperens on Mon May 18, 2009 10:58 pm

,<<<This is why the government must stay out of the churches and people positive moral and ethical choices as much as possible.>>>>


Actually can part of that , I wrote that wrong- they should stay out of the faith based insititutions and claiming they specifically represent God - but they should for the sake of peaceful co-existance, help maintain the basic laws of ethical interactions such as not stealing etcetera......
It is when a government institutes something that forces someone to break and ethical code is where martial law becomes a serious issue ....

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Post by pepperens on Mon May 18, 2009 11:40 pm

Cotton Picker wrote:
pepperens wrote:
Dawn, I simply don't agree with the interpretation in your post , I see both Bush and Obamas scenerios as cultural, both were subtle issues, both as subtle diplomacies .
And that would be.... Your opinion....
pepperens wrote:
As I said before, there is too much nit picking in the internet blog media sphere, and people thrive on it like a drug.

Actually no ...you are not defining Lashon Hara correctly. A general statement of people thriving on gossip as a type of human nature is not a direct negative statement about a person or person's event-it is identifying a problematic action that could be done by anyone .
Saying "people who steal might be greedy" would not be lashon hara.


I wrote :
<<<<I watched the video, and I see it possible in both ways.>>>>>>

Cotton Picker states what I already said :

<<<<<And that would be... Your opinion...>>>>>>>

I restate:

Thats why I said " I see it "

I write:
<<<<<I know over time, some try to resort to personal attacks when one does not interpret the same, and that proves all the more the partisanship in the views, and the suspicious subjectivity of it.>>>>>

Cotton Picker write :
And that would be.... Your opinion....Or, your lashon hara, as the case may be...

I write :

Again, this is not about a specific person , or group, so is not lashon hara, but about human nature and agenda in general .

I wrote :
I think though ,some individuals have moved to bring a lot of this conversation into a constructive rhelm of exploring the moral and ethical values of what evil tongue does, and that is an important value to explore

Cotton Picker correctly states :
The tongue is not evil, in and of itself... It is the overflow of what comes out of the heart, that serves to make the tongue evil..

I write :
I would hope people would know this, but it is important you pointed it out. Another sign if anyone did take something way too literally and not the meaning behind the statement.

,<<I am also inclined to disagree with the Rabbi and his pillow... Just because a feather blows by and gets caught in my hair... Does not indicate that I am forced to leave it there.. .>>>

It is not just in the hair though.
But it is true, I decided not to continue spreading some of the rumors.

,<<<If we are like a dam, that stores up everything we hear.... We will burst under the pressure of superfluous information... However, if we use a net, to seine out what is worth keeping, from what is trash... We will allow the pillow feathers of life to just blow on by... That is, unless we are stuffing our own pillow of bitterness and resentment...>>>>

It is important that the reciever not take in the negativity that is put out there- which I also stated earlier-...... why I am deciding not to take part in the spreading, so the above is true.
But, as an extreme, putting trash out there is also the responsiblity of one doing it and it does fly in the wind.
I have seen how difficult it is to clean up gossip, because it changes and grows on itself as new "information" is added by one news reel after another.

The responsibility and accountability is on both ends- the one who spreads negative tales and negative interpretation to disparage specific people , and the one who decides not to be careful about what they hear..

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Post by Cotton Picker on Tue May 19, 2009 2:09 am

pepperens wrote:
Actually no ...you are not defining Lashon Hara correctly. A general statement of people thriving on gossip as a type of human nature is not a direct negative statement about a person or person's event-it is identifying a problematic action that could be done by anyone .
Saying "people who steal might be greedy" would not be lashon hara.
I disagree....
It is a violation of this mitzvah to say anything about another person, even it is true, even if it is not negative, even if it is not secret, even if it hurts no one, even if the person himself would tell the same thing if asked! It is said that the telling of gossip leads to bloodshed, which is why the next words in the Torah are "you shall not stand aside while your fellow's blood is shed." The story of Do'eig the Edomite (I Samuel Chs. 21-22) is often used to illustrate the harm that can be done by tale-bearing. Do'eig saw Achimelekh the Kohein give David bread and a sword, a completely innocent act intended to aid a leading member of Saul's court. Do'eig reported this to Saul. Do'eig's story was completely true, not negative, not secret, and Achimelekh would have told Saul exactly the same thing if asked (in fact, he did so later). Yet Saul misinterpreted this tale as proof that Achimelekh was supporting David in a rebellion, and proceeded to slaughter all but one of the kohanim at Nob.
<snip>

It is forbidden to even imply or suggest negative things about a person. It is forbidden to say negative things about a person, even in jest. It is likewise considered a "shade of lashon ha-ra" to say positive things about a person in the presence of his enemies, because this will encourage his enemies to say negative things to contradict you!
http://www.jewfaq.org/speech.htm
pepperens wrote:
pepperens wrote:
I watched the video, and I see it possible in both ways.
Cotton Picker wrote:
And that would be... Your opinion...
Thats why I said " I see it "
That is why I left off the addition of..... Or, your lashon hara, as the case may be...... because there is a difference between rendering a personal opinion about one's self, and rendering a personal opinion (lashon hara) about anyone other than one's self...
pepperens wrote:
Again, this is not about a specific person , or group, so is not lashon hara, but about human nature and agenda in general .
I beg to differ... What makes your opinions about the specifics of "human nature and agenda in general"... The last word in exactly what constitutes "human nature and agenda in general?"
The gravest of these sins of tale-bearing is lashon ha-ra (literally, "the evil tongue"), which involves discrediting a person or saying negative things about a person, even if those negative things are true. Indeed, true statements are even more damaging than false ones, because you can't defend yourself by disproving the negative statement!

http://www.jewfaq.org/speech.htm
pepperens wrote:
pepperens wrote:
I think though ,some individuals have moved to bring a lot of this conversation into a constructive rhelm of exploring the moral and ethical values of what evil tongue does, and that is an important value to explore
Cotton Picker correctly states :
Cotton Picker wrote:
The tongue is not evil, in and of itself... It is the overflow of what comes out of the heart, that serves to make the tongue evil..
I would hope people would know this, but it is important you pointed it out. Another sign if anyone did take something way too literally and not the meaning behind the statement.
I believe that is why it has been said.... "Don't believe anything that you hear"... And only half, of what you see"
pepperens wrote:
Cotton Picker wrote:
I am also inclined to disagree with the Rabbi and his pillow... Just because a feather blows by and gets caught in my hair... Does not indicate that I am forced to leave it there..
It is not just in the hair though.

But it is true, I decided not to continue spreading some of the rumors.
The hair.... Is a metaphor for the mind, the brain, the personal thought process and the personal belief system... i. e... The heart, meaning the soul of the individual....
pepperens wrote:
Cotton Picker wrote:
If we are like a dam, that stores up everything we hear.... We will burst under the pressure of superfluous information... However, if we use a net, to seine out what is worth keeping, from what is trash... We will allow the pillow feathers of life to just blow on by... That is, unless we are stuffing our own pillow of bitterness and resentment..
It is important that the reciever not take in the negativity that is put out there- which I also stated earlier-...... why I am deciding not to take part in the spreading, so the above is true.

But, as an extreme, putting trash out there is also the responsiblity of one doing it and it does fly in the wind.

I have seen how difficult it is to clean up gossip, because it changes and grows on itself as new "information" is added by one news reel after another.

The responsibility and accountability is on both ends- the one who spreads negative tales and negative interpretation to disparage specific people , and the one who decides not to be careful about what they hear..
True enough.. According to Jewish law...
The person who listens to gossip is even worse than the person who tells it, because no harm could be done by gossip if no one listened to it. It has been said that lashon ha-ra (disparaging speech) kills three: the person who speaks it, the person who hears it, and the person about whom it is told. (Talmud Arachin 15b).

http://www.jewfaq.org/speech.htm
Thank you Pepperens... It is good to keep our tongues in check, and not become the purveyors of damaging testimony... And I also thank you for demonstrating to me, just a portion of how free we have become through Jesus... If I had to depend on following with exacting precision, the letter of the law... Like practicing Jews do... I would loose my mind...
John 8:36 So if the Son sets you free, you will indeed be free.
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The Role of the Church in Instituting Martial Law - Page 4 Empty Re: The Role of the Church in Instituting Martial Law

Post by 7dawn on Tue May 19, 2009 4:44 am

Okay all....Thanks for the awesome conversation even if we did get a bit off track. I enjoyed everyone's posts. I hope with new topics we can keep the conversations going. I have decided to lock this thread because it has gone down way to many rivers, which is my fault. It gets difficult keeping on topic once certain coversations begin to evolve.

We have many articles posted, and I am going to post a few conversation starters continuing along these lines under different subject matter. If you would like to refer back to anything that has been discussed in here you should be able to copy and paste it into the new subject matter. If it won't allow you to, let me know and I will reopen this forum and then tell people it is closed but has been left open for referral purposes. Did I just make sense???? I hope so. LOL!

Happy Debating Everyone!
God Bless!

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Dawn

You laugh because I am different. I laugh because you are all the same.

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