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The Role of the Church in Instituting Martial Law

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The Role of the Church in Instituting Martial Law - Page 3 Empty Re: The Role of the Church in Instituting Martial Law

Post by Cotton Picker on Sat May 16, 2009 11:03 pm

pepperens wrote:

7dawn wrote:AAAAGGGGHHHHH!

Obama bowing to the Saudi king showed subservience to him. If you watch the news any time Arab leaders meet they hug and kiss eachother on both cheeks or they grab eachother by the arms and kiss both cheeks. They do not bow...Not that I have seen. So, Obama effectively told the Arab world that we are subservient to them...(not sure on the spelling on subservient)...

I know this is the rumour that is being spread, but I looked at articles online and I see exactly what is going on - it nothing but rumours along with many others, it was a gesture that could be interpreted different ways, and it looked much more of following tradition in a particular country. But because people are building on othe false rumours this is the type of thing that creates problems .


Girl... I don't know if you are refusing to read what is put in front of you.. Or you are missing the posts addressing Just what was implied by the genuflection of our POTUS to a foreign monarch....

Cotton Picker wrote:
pepperens wrote:
The same might go for what is done to greet Queen Elizabeth.
This has nothing to do with displaying what could be idols to some Christians . It is an act of custom greeting leaders - different in different countries.
It is never customary for any American citizen to bow before a foreign monarch... Much less, the leader of our nation to do so...

Barry genuflected... By no stretch of the imagination...
Genuflected

One entry found.

Main Entry:gen·u·flect
Pronunciation:\ˈjen-yə-ˌflekt\
Function:intransitive verb
Etymology:Late Latin genuflectere, from Latin genu knee + flectere to bend — more at knee
Date:1630

1 a: to bend the knee b: to touch the knee to the floor or ground especially in worship

2: to be servilely obedient or respectful

— gen·u·flec·tion \ˌjen-yə-ˈflek-shən\ noun

http://mw1.m-w.com/dictionary/genuflected
.
Cotton Picker wrote:
pepperens wrote:
I think it is important to remember that there are people who very cautiously separate church or any kind of religious insitution from state. By being very careful in that separation, that is all it is and nothing more.
It is also very important to remember that the same POTUS who insisted that all Christian symbols be covered... Is the same POTUS who violated all proper protocol by genuflecting to the Islamic, Saudi Arabian King Abdullah...

IMHO... Obama, by covering one to "remain neutral" and bowing to the other, demonstrating servitude to him, is duplicitous... To say the very least... And a dangerous loose cannon, on the deck of our American ship of state, at best.....
.
IMHO...To continue to defend the indefensible as merely being a polite greeting, demonstrates a naievete that borders on willful ignorance...

.

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Post by pepperens on Sat May 16, 2009 11:23 pm

<<<Girl... I don't know if you are refusing to read what is put in front of you.. Or you are missing the posts addressing Just what was implied by the genuflection of our POTUS to a foreign monarch....>>>>

What girl ? What are you talking about ? Who is that ?
I don't read rumours or always what people's interpretations are - "boy" ? What an odd way of addressing people.

Barry genuflected... By no stretch of the imagination...
[quote]Genuflected

I simply don't agree with the implications of what people are drawing from this - not so much the point of the movement - as I said, it is blown way out of proportion , and where people enter into lashon hara .
The outright rumours are from past myths that are also being spread. One on top of the other adds into rumour-mongering and lashon hara.

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Post by pepperens on Sat May 16, 2009 11:25 pm

IMHO...To continue to defend the indefensible as merely being a polite greeting, demonstrates a naievete that borders on willful ignorance...

.[/quote]


And, calling someone else naive or willfull ignorance is personal attack and also not humble.
These discussions are supposed to stay away from personal attacks.

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Post by Marie on Sat May 16, 2009 11:36 pm

pepperens - I haven't read this whole thread, only part of this page. I agree with you that people tend to paint issues into extremist views one way or the other.. there is probably so much more going on than we know. I like to read the opposing view, at least until the last few years I have.. Now we have gotton so alienated from each other - left versus right - that we can hardly have a civil discussion any more. The TRUTH is probably somewhere in the middle, not at the extremes.. We do have to be careful to listen to the other side. People can so easily be manipulated.

Have not heard of Lashon Hara - going to read up on it.
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Post by pepperens on Sat May 16, 2009 11:48 pm

Hi Marie,
Hi Marie, You could not have said it better. I do try to read opposing views, because it does allow for finding out how word manipulation is going on both sides. In fact, I struggle to stay away from the loaded terms, because they no longer communicate truthfully.
And , you are right - there is so much more going on than we know . I believe a lot of what is getting reported is a decoy for distraction sometimes , for one or many reasons.
Someone posted recently on another list about how interpreting things one way eventually gets into the internet and everywhere else as "fact" .

,<<<The TRUTH is probably somewhere in the middle, not at the extremes...>>>

You said it allright, thats exactly it !


Marie wrote:pepperens - I haven't read this whole thread, only part of this page. I agree with you that people tend to paint issues into extremist views one way or the other.. there is probably so much more going on than we know. I like to read the opposing view, at least until the last few years I have.. Now we have gotton so alienated from each other - left versus right - that we can hardly have a civil discussion any more. The TRUTH is probably somewhere in the middle, not at the extremes.. We do have to be careful to listen to the other side. People can so easily be manipulated.

Have not heard of Lashon Hara - going to read up on it.

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Post by Marie on Sat May 16, 2009 11:56 pm

Exactly... and it has been going on for years....and now it's so easy with the internet, rumor spread as fact.. I don't really trust anyone's viewpoint 100%, but I listen more as an observer than an 'absorber' lol.. and just add it to the other voices I'm hearing.

It's good to be informed in a well-rounded way.. I think then people can come up with original ideas and original solutions - and that is very lacking these days.
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Post by pepperens on Sun May 17, 2009 12:07 am

This is certainly refreshing to hear Smile
What you have desribed had increased a great deal in the past 15 years , and some are working as hard as possible to increase the polarization , but I know quietly and slowly , many are getting tired of it .
I have been amazed how many things have been mailed to me as "truth" ( wish I had a dollar for every time this happens) and I have looked it up and found it only to be partly true. Someone shifts a word or meaning or intent and all of a sudden there is a false rumors going around as "fact".
Many of these things are partly true, interpreted incorrectly, put in the wrong category of meaning .
It is almost worse than blatent lies, because at least blatent lies a person can disprove it in black and white.
The sneakiest is when people take a fact, put their own twist on it, and sell it .
When someone works to sort it out, no one spends the time to read fully what really is going on.


Marie wrote:Exactly... and it has been going on for years....and now it's so easy with the internet, rumor spread as fact.. I don't really trust anyone's viewpoint 100%, but I listen more as an observer than an 'absorber' lol.. and just add it to the other voices I'm hearing.

It's good to be informed in a well-rounded way.. I think then people can come up with original ideas and original solutions - and that is very lacking these days.

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Post by Marie on Sun May 17, 2009 12:25 am

Thanks Smile

I am verrryyy slow to jump on any bandwagon.. not going to just take anyone's word for something. Gotta prove it to me haha

I think this really increased during the Clinton administration. Dick Morris'
triangulation .. where the politician may or may not have really held the views he/she expressed, but used it to gain political power.

And then there's the ever-present *SPIN* lol Political doctoring of the facts to suit one's purpose.

you got it!
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Post by pepperens on Sun May 17, 2009 1:01 am

I like the verse you quote at the bottom of your post - very fitting !
I am slow to jump on bandwagons too.
I try my best not to follow media or internet sensations exclusively because I find so much on both sides lacking facts.
Even if I have a particular point of view, its too easy to put a major focus on the latest twist of gossip or media moment, because it represents "my side" . When I do that it endangers me falling into not telling the truth . It is important to guard against misrepresenting things by being careful about what is spread .
Posting some of these articles as Interest is fine, and I approach these things in interest. But, I don't approach them as fact.
The government has no religious or God or Faith authority over anything at all for me spiritually, and should not in any earthly legal sense either- except to stay out of it . Their role is to preserve that freedom, and make sure no oppression can occur on that account.
How God's hand is in government is no more relevant than how God's hand is in nature, each human life, or the bird in the tree. God watches over all, but no less or more , and not in any way that I would claim to know. I follow the law to the best of my ability in this country for peacful co-existance, but for no other reason. I respect the freedoms I have because the government is not in my building of faith, or prayerroom, and it better not be.
Smile


Marie wrote:Thanks Smile

I am verrryyy slow to jump on any bandwagon.. not going to just take anyone's word for something. Gotta prove it to me haha

I think this really increased during the Clinton administration. Dick Morris'
triangulation .. where the politician may or may not have really held the views he/she expressed, but used it to gain political power.

And then there's the ever-present *SPIN* lol Political doctoring of the facts to suit one's purpose.

you got it!

pepperens

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Post by Marie on Sun May 17, 2009 1:28 am

I think you are on to something there.. We render to Caesar what it Caesar's, be thankful for good government, pray for our leaders.. beyond that, government does not have authority over us in the religious realm. That doesn't mean we should not be watchful, but I am not so sure that politics and religion mix, as in political action.. there are two sides to this, and it's good to think it through carefully...
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Post by pepperens on Sun May 17, 2009 2:30 am

Marie wrote:I think you are on to something there.. We render to Caesar what it Caesar's, be thankful for good government, pray for our leaders.. beyond that, government does not have authority over us in the religious realm. That doesn't mean we should not be watchful, but I am not so sure that politics and religion mix, as in political action.. there are two sides to this, and it's good to think it through carefully...

Exactly Smile

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Post by Marie on Sun May 17, 2009 3:06 am

pepperens, this doesn't really have anything to do with this thread.. but discovering the phrase "lashon hara" is just what I need today.. there are several situations going on right now that are causing a lot of anxiety and stress for both of us, and also for a new person that just moved to our town..... Found a neat website Negative Speech (Lashon Hara) that I'm going to spend some time on!

okay, enough drifting... Smile
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Post by pepperens on Sun May 17, 2009 4:13 am

This is not necessarily a strict religious practice of every person, but a great ethical study under the bible.


Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra





The Power of Speech
Judaism is intensely aware of the power of speech and of the harm that can be done through speech. The rabbis note that the universe itself was created through speech. Of the 43 sins enumerated in the Al Cheit confession recited on Yom Kippur, 11 are sins committed through speech. The Talmud tells that the tongue is an instrument so dangerous that it must be kept hidden from view, behind two protective walls (the mouth and teeth) to prevent its misuse.

The harm done by speech is even worse than the harm done by stealing or by cheating someone financially: money lost can be repaid, but the harm done by speech can never be repaired. For this reason, some sources indicate that there is no forgiveness for lashon ha-ra (disparaging speech). This is probably hyperbole, but it illustrates the seriousness of improper speech. A Chasidic tale vividly illustrates the danger of improper speech: A man went about the community telling malicious lies about the rabbi. Later, he realized the wrong he had done, and began to feel remorse. He went to the rabbi and begged his forgiveness, saying he would do anything he could to make amends. The rabbi told the man, "Take a feather pillow, cut it open, and scatter the feathers to the winds." The man thought this was a strange request, but it was a simple enough task, and he did it gladly. When he returned to tell the rabbi that he had done it, the rabbi said, "Now, go and gather the feathers. Because you can no more make amends for the damage your words have done than you can recollect the feathers."

Speech has been compared to an arrow: once the words are released, like an arrow, they cannot be recalled, the harm they do cannot be stopped, and the harm they do cannot always be predicted, for words like arrows often go astray.

Tale-Bearing
There are two mitzvot in the Torah that specifically address improper speech: Thou shalt not go up and down as a tale-bearer among thy people (Lev. 19:16), and ye shall not wrong one another (Lev. 25:17, which according to tradition refers to wronging a person with speech).

Tale-bearing is, essentially, any gossip. The Hebrew word for tale-bearer is "rakhil" (Reish-Kaf-Yod-Lamed), which is related to a word meaning trader or merchant. The idea is that a tale-bearer is like a merchant, but he deals in information instead of goods. In our modern "Information Age," the idea of information as a product has become more clear than ever before, yet it is present even here in the Torah.

It is a violation of this mitzvah to say anything about another person, even it is true, even if it is not negative, even if it is not secret, even if it hurts no one, even if the person himself would tell the same thing if asked! It is said that the telling of gossip leads to bloodshed, which is why the next words in the Torah are "you shall not stand aside while your fellow's blood is shed." The story of Do'eig the Edomite (I Samuel Chs. 21-22) is often used to illustrate the harm that can be done by tale-bearing. Do'eig saw Achimelekh the Kohein give David bread and a sword, a completely innocent act intended to aid a leading member of Saul's court. Do'eig reported this to Saul. Do'eig's story was completely true, not negative, not secret, and Achimelekh would have told Saul exactly the same thing if asked (in fact, he did so later). Yet Saul misinterpreted this tale as proof that Achimelekh was supporting David in a rebellion, and proceeded to slaughter all but one of the kohanim at Nob.

The person who listens to gossip is even worse than the person who tells it, because no harm could be done by gossip if no one listened to it. It has been said that lashon ha-ra (disparaging speech) kills three: the person who speaks it, the person who hears it, and the person about whom it is told. (Talmud Arachin 15b).

In Jewish law, all things are considered to be secret unless a person specifically says otherwise. For this reason, you will note that in the Torah, G-d constantly says to Moses, "Speak to the Children of Israel, saying:" or "Speak to the Children of Israel and tell them:" If G-d did not specifically say this to Moses, Moses would be forbidden to repeat his words! Nor is there any time-limit on secrets. The Talmud tells the story of a student who revealed a secret after 22 years, and was immediately banished from the house of study! (Talmud Sanhedrin 35a ??? Rabbi Ami***)

The gravest of these sins of tale-bearing is lashon ha-ra (literally, "the evil tongue"), which involves discrediting a person or saying negative things about a person, even if those negative things are true. Indeed, true statements are even more damaging than false ones, because you can't defend yourself by disproving the negative statement! Some sources indicate that lashon ha-ra is equal in seriousness to murder, idol worship, and incest and adultery (the only three sins that you may not violate even to save a life).

It is forbidden to even imply or suggest negative things about a person. It is forbidden to say negative things about a person, even in jest. It is likewise considered a "shade of lashon ha-ra" to say positive things about a person in the presence of his enemies, because this will encourage his enemies to say negative things to contradict you!

One who tells disparaging things that are false is referred to as a motzi sheim ra, that is, one who spreads a bad report. This is considered the lowest of the low.

It is generally not a sin to repeat things that have been told "in the presence of three persons." The idea is that if it is told in the presence of three persons, it is already public knowledge, and no harm can come of retelling it. However, even in this case, you should not repeat it if you know you will be spreading the gossip further.

When Tale-Bearing is Allowed
There are a few exceptional circumstances when tale-bearing is allowed, or even required. Most notably, tale-bearing is required in a Jewish court of law, because it is a mitzvah to give testimony and that mitzvah overrides the general prohibition against tale-bearing. Thus, a person is required to reveal information, even if it is something that was explicitly told in confidence, even if it will harm a person, in a Jewish court of law.

A person is also required to reveal information to protect a person from immediate, serious harm. For example, if a person hears that others are plotting to kill someone, he is required to reveal this information. That is another reason why the commandment not to go about as a tale-bearer is juxtaposed with "you shall not stand aside while your fellow's blood is shed."

In limited circumstances, one is also permitted to reveal information if someone is entering into a relationship that he would not enter if he knew certain information. For example, it may be permissible to tell a person that his prospective business partner is untrustworthy, or that a prospective spouse has a disease. This exception is subject to significant and complex limitations; however, if those limitations are satisfied, the person with the information is required to reveal it.

In all of these exceptions, a person is not permitted to reveal information if the same objective could be fulfilled without revealing information. For example, if you could talk a person out of marrying for reasons other than the disease, you may not reveal the disease.

Wronging a Person through Speech
Leviticus 25:17 says, "You shall not wrong one another." This has traditionally been interpreted as wronging a person with speech. It includes any statement that will embarrass, insult or deceive a person, or cause a person emotional pain or distress.

Here are some commonly-used examples of behavior that is forbidden by this mitzvah:

You may not call a person by a derogatory nickname, or by any other embarrassing name, even if he is used to it.
You may not ask an uneducated person for an opinion on a scholarly matter (that would draw attention to his lack of knowledge or education).
You may not ask a merchant how much he would sell something for if you have no intention of buying.
You may not refer someone to another person for assistance when you know the other person cannot help (in other words, it's a violation of Jewish law to give someone the run-around!).
You may not deceive a person, even if no harm is done by the deception; for example, you may not sell non-kosher meat to a non-Jew telling him that it is kosher, even though no harm is done to the non-Jew by this deception.
You may not sell a person damaged goods without identifying the damage, even if the price you give is fair for the goods in their damaged condition.
You may not offer a person a gift or invite a person to dinner if you know that the person will not accept.
You may not compliment a person if you do not mean it.

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Post by Cotton Picker on Sun May 17, 2009 4:13 am

pepperens wrote:
What girl ? What are you talking about ? Who is that ?
I don't read rumours or always what people's interpretations are - "boy" ? What an odd way of addressing people.
If you are a female and you find the term girl offensive... Please accept my apologies.... Having become accustomed to Southern style and colloquialisms, callin' me boy... Don't bother me in the least...
pepperens wrote:
Cotton Picker wrote:
Barry genuflected... By no stretch of the imagination...
Genuflected
I simply don't agree with the implications of what people are drawing from this - not so much the point of the movement - as I said, it is blown way out of proportion
That would be.... Your opinion...
pepperens wrote:
, and where people enter into lashon hara.The outright rumours are from past myths that are also being spread. One on top of the other adds into rumour-mongering and lashon hara.
It's not gossip... When it is obvious in both photographs and film... That Obama "bent the knee"... In other words.. he genuflected to a foreign monarch... And in so doing, effectively made the entire USA, King Abdullah' servile footstool..

.


Last edited by Cotton Picker on Sun May 17, 2009 4:54 am; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Cotton Picker on Sun May 17, 2009 4:34 am

pepperens wrote:
Cotton Picker wrote:
IMHO...To continue to defend the indefensible as merely being a polite greeting, demonstrates a naievete that borders on willful ignorance...
And, calling someone else naive or willfull ignorance is personal attack and also not humble.
These discussions are supposed to stay away from personal attacks.
Once again, my apologies, for giving you the impression that I was attacking you personally... I must confess some confusion, as to your apparent unaffected simplicity, in your continued defense of the indefensible actions of the POTUS.... As well as your apparent refusal to acknowledge that Obama violated all standards of all proper protocol as it pertains to greeting a foreign monarch, by any American citizen, much less the POTUS, when he "bent the knee" before King Abdullah...

As an American citizen.. I was, and am, as disgusted by his duplicitous, inexcusable fawning to an Islamic monarch, while demanding Christian symbols be covered in another venue.... As I have been by his violating the Constitution with his Socialist agendas and bogus stimulus packages...
.

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Post by Marie on Sun May 17, 2009 4:40 am

so.. just thinking out loud here.. even under Jewish and Christian principles, to speak about policies that might be dangerous and harmful would be permissable and even required... because they may be harmful to humanity at large.

It's interesting to think about this, because gossip (of all kinds) is so prevalent.. I'm guilty of it, I have a hard time telling people I don't want to hear it. And have you noticed that it is self-perpetuating? Like once you start, it takes on a life of its own? Especially if there has been a perceived injustice - wow, I can certainly feel justified in talking about someone's poor behavior.. but rather than feeling better, I feel worse and worse, angrier and angrier! And stressed!

lotsa truth here!
Marie
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Post by 7dawn on Sun May 17, 2009 4:58 am

I thought y'all might find this interesting...

Greet With a Handshake
Khalid Hamad Al-Suleiman, Okaz

Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Abdullah has ordered an end to the practice of kissing his hands. The king has reminded us all that it is only our mothers and fathers who deserve this respect and affection. The king’s order indicates his humility and modesty.

The ban should also extend to the unusual practice of kissing the shoulder which is often seen here in the Kingdom.

Royal court officials now instruct visitors who wish to greet the king and other elderly princes that the greeting should be a handshake rather than a kiss. Nonetheless, despite the king’s order, some citizens still insist on kissing the shoulder or hand of the king, the crown prince and other princes.

Royal receptions are telecast internationally and, on several occasions, I have heard people abroad asking if the kissing of the shoulder is part of the protocol of meeting the Saudi king. This idea is personally disturbing to me, particularly when I know that the king himself is not in favor of the practice. After the televised announcement of the royal order, I do not think anyone will try to continue the practice.

I hope that those who insisted on kissing hands will also realize that kissing shoulders is equally distasteful to the king. The proper greeting for royalty is now clear: a handshake rather than a kiss.

Some do not find Obama's bow offensive. Some do find it offensive. The problem is that it shows subservience according to their culture, at least from what I have read. So, even though King Abdullah may not have taken it that way, you can bet some of the extreme Islamic groups that are out to kill us did.

With that said...What makes it worse is the denial of the bow by the White House. How stupid do they think we are, because they would have to think us pretty stupid to agree with that statement! I would have been more understanding had he come out and said that he did bow and did not realize proper protocol concerning the greeting of Arab royalty. Lord knows Bush made quite a few faux pas while in the White House. At least he had the guts to admit it.

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The Role of the Church in Instituting Martial Law - Page 3 Empty Lashon Ha-Ra

Post by 7dawn on Sun May 17, 2009 5:12 am

Thanks for posting that. I think in debates we do get passionate because we feel strongly about things. I do think most in here do their best to research the information that they are discussing. We only have so much at our fingertips....So we have to read this, read that, and hope and pray there is truth somewhere in the middle. There is no media outlet that is not somewhat biased, but I believe we are all biased in some way, shape or form.

I do believe discussion of issues is important. As I watch the news, read articles, read my Bible....etc. I feel that it is important for us to be aware of what is going on in the world. In the end it will be between the individual and God, but I also am a firm believer that we need to watch the signs of the times. The signs are getting more dismal in some ways. In other ways, as Christians, it is a very exciting time.

I am passionate about the state of this country. It is on a slippery slope to socialism and I would go so far as to say communism. It drives me nuts when people use separation of church and state. I get so tired of hearing it because it is almost always used in an improper context. I have a problem with the President covering religious symbols when he speaks somewhere that there is one. The symbols in and of themselves are no big deal...It is not the cross we worship, but Christ. It shows that he has no respect for others like he says he does. I do not like his outright lying about certain things, and the man has outright lied about some stuff, including the bow to King Abdullah.

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Post by pepperens on Sun May 17, 2009 5:41 am

Not all agree about the claims of "lying" so I will not repeat that type of rumor as fact. According to Lashon Hara, I do stay away from that type of stuff when I can . But, I do keep a watchful eye.
Many of us are passionate about this country as well, and are just as concerned , but see other signs of concerns that the very people who may be concerned about "socialism" do not have concerns about..
I don't like abuse of separation of church and state, just as I don't like to see handicapped people going into restaurants specifically with the purpose of looking for ramps they can't use. There are abuses of principles and laws.
But, I do know there are Christians out there who are very well looking to abuse my rights and rights of other Christians and that worries me just as much as the atheists . Especially when some create idols out of their nation equalling it to God. It is idolatry in my view , a very serious breach . It is the type of idolatry many in Islam practice by identifying their nations as such.

Too much contentiousness has also resulted in not getting things done , and created way too much hatred.
The good thing is many people are starting to wake up to this and are working to get away from all of the contentiousness.
I told Katrina, I wouldn't get on here, but I did because we were searching out an intentionally possible evil intent ( you know what I am speaking ) so I was searching all the boards.
I have seen abuse of Christians , by other non-Christians on the internet and this intent can be downright stupid and hypocritical- well wrong. So I try to step in when possible.
In fact I was blown off a foraging list for doing exactly that .
I know it goes different ways - believe me.



I am passionate about the state of this country. It is on a slippery slope to socialism and I would go so far as to say communism. It drives me nuts when people use separation of church and state. I get so tired of hearing it because it is almost always used in an improper context. I have a problem with the President covering religious symbols when he speaks somewhere that there is one. The symbols in and of themselves are no big deal...It is not the cross we worship, but Christ. It shows that he has no respect for others like he says he does. I do not like his outright lying about certain things, and the man has outright lied about some stuff, including the bow to King Abdullah.[/color][/quote]

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Post by Marie on Sun May 17, 2009 6:30 am

While Christians are watching the political scene, they must not forget their primary mission and purpose, and that is their own spiritual lives as well as gathering others into the fold... that is a caution I have.
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Post by 7dawn on Sun May 17, 2009 7:21 am

Not all agree about the claims of "lying" so I will not repeat that type of rumor as fact. According to Lashon Hara, I do stay away from that type of stuff when I can . But, I do keep a watchful eye.
Many of us are passionate about this country as well, and are just as concerned , but see other signs of concerns that the very people who may be concerned about "socialism" do not have concerns about..
I don't like abuse of separation of church and state, just as I don't like to see handicapped people going into restaurants specifically with the purpose of looking for ramps they can't use. There are abuses of principles and laws.
But, I do know there are Christians out there who are very well looking to abuse my rights and rights of other Christians and that worries me just as much as the atheists . Especially when some create idols out of their nation equalling it to God. It is idolatry in my view , a very serious breach . It is the type of idolatry many in Islam practice by identifying their nations as such.

Susan, I know you don't like this kind of discussion. I appreciate your insight, even though I do not always agree with you. Very Happy Just as you do not always agree with me. I do enjoy your posts.

With that said...The White House and Gibbs said Obama did not bow to King Abdullah. They said he grabbed both the mans hands and because he (Obama) was taller it appeared that he bowed. My husband is 6'6 and works with a man that is 5'2. He has never had to bend his body down to shake his hand or if he grabbed both hands to shake. The ongoing joke at his work is that he is Aragorn keeper of the hobbits. lol!


Obama also stated he had no clue about the tea parties that were going on. Give me a break! When you have that many people gathering protesting the government, the President of the United States knows about it. If he did not know about it, his staff was horribly remiss in not mentioning it to him or he is just ignorant of what is going on around him and that is just scary! According the the HS document released all those people are basically on a watch list and with a bunch of them gathering you would think the President would know about it.

We cannot and should not rationalize everything that is said and done to excuse behavior. Like I said, if he had come out and admitted what he did it would be one thing. Nope, Mr. Transparency had it spinning better than anyone could have. For goodness sakes! The man is the President of the US!

But, I do know there are Christians out there who are very well looking to abuse my rights and rights of other Christians and that worries me just as much as the atheists . Especially when some create idols out of their nation equalling it to God. It is idolatry in my view , a very serious breach . It is the type of idolatry many in Islam practice by identifying their nations as such.

David and I had this discussion the other night. I think it is because of who the nation was founded upon. Among the Founders there was rarely something written about the country, laws or just writings where the importance of putting God first in all that they did was not mentioned. Even the least religious among them never failed to mention God when discussing things, especially when it had to do with government. I have not done the extensive reading that David has done concerning this, but I have done enough to know that God was the most important component in the founding of the US. The reason being is that they believed these freedoms were God given. I believe the same way. I have never lived in a country where this was not the case but have met others from countries like that. They love their homeland but have a passion for the US and the freedoms that we have that is sadly lacking by the native born citizens. Isn't there the same idolatry concerning the Jewish people and Israel? I believe all people feel passionate about their country. I do not feel as strongly about the idolatry as you do, I just think that at times perspective can be lost. Most people that I hear talking passionately about the US also talk passionately about God.

Too much contentiousness has also resulted in not getting things done , and created way too much hatred.
The good thing is many people are starting to wake up to this and are working to get away from all of the contentiousness.
I told Katrina, I wouldn't get on here, but I did because we were searching out an intentionally possible evil intent ( you know what I am speaking ) so I was searching all the boards.
I have seen abuse of Christians , by other non-Christians on the internet and this intent can be downright stupid and hypocritical- well wrong. So I try to step in when possible.
In fact I was blown off a foraging list for doing exactly that .
I know it goes different ways - believe me.

I agree that people need to sit down and talk and set aside the hatred. It doesn't do anybody any good at all. I wish they would do away with political parties. The dem's and repub's have way too much power and that is the problem. There is entirely too much government going on and that is never a good thing. The Founders would be rolling in their graves if they saw the state of this nation...

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Post by 7dawn on Sun May 17, 2009 7:21 am

Marie wrote:While Christians are watching the political scene, they must not forget their primary mission and purpose, and that is their own spiritual lives as well as gathering others into the fold... that is a caution I have.

I totally agree with that statement. Very Happy

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Post by pepperens on Mon May 18, 2009 2:05 am

With that said...The White House and Gibbs said Obama did not bow to King Abdullah. They said he grabbed both the mans hands and because he (Obama) was taller it appeared that he bowed. My husband is 6'6 and works with a man that is 5'2. He has never had to bend his body down to shake his hand or if he grabbed both hands to shake. The ongoing joke at his work is that he is Aragorn keeper of the hobbits. lol! [/color]


I actually can see both scenerios in all honesty , and have witnessed both.
I am a short person, and the Rabbi six feet four ( and other tall people I know around six feet)when greeting me can appear to be bowing - I have even seen bended knee. My old doctor did that - he had the gift of a healer, and he was a very tall man and greeted many people this way - it was a personable way of greeting to make better eye contact.
There are others who greet me just as differently - standing tall and casting their eyes downward.
Both situations can be read differently and seen differently, and I don't take any of these things in any heavy account. Human body language protocol has can have a lot of leeway. I see different tall people do different things account for height just as short people - Napoleonic complex is real - and extreme end of it.
I don't sit and make excuses, but am very careful when spreading these accusations , because I know how focus and bias takes things way out of control. Generally , I make a mental note , and also take note which crowd is spreading which rumors and go somewhere in the middle Smile

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Post by pepperens on Mon May 18, 2009 2:24 am

Hi Dawn, still figuring out these quote things - so this post should have come first.
It is good that we do get to interesting study and work at getting at the truth of things . Even if things are ended in a question mark, I would rather see that than no sense of study at all .
I am willing to put up a question mark as to intent and reading into body language, as there is to many things. I might not believe this particular rumor of intent by Obama, but the memory is there.
There was this stuff about Bush and hand holding with another political figure, and I thought the whole thing also was ridiculous rumor mongering and refused to participate .
Having seen the extraordinay damage the polarization has done to this country, I am working on personal training to examine where bias lies , and to not take part in further damage.

Also, traditionally I grew up with a group in which life insurance, voting, attending any political event and speaking , and certainly holding any position as meager as a fire fighter among some was a big no-no- it was putting oneself in government .
I believe that is going way too far, but I do understand all the intricate views of all these different groups that believe in "Be Ye Separate". I have searched for a careful middle ground .
I believe the extremes of non-involvement with government can essentially become involvement , and also can become self idolatry ( prideful of non-inolvement) if not careful.
And the other direction if becoming idolatrous in one's country in which one confuses it with God like Pharoah.
So it is about focus, and how one deals with it - the internal self check is continious.
I think the republicans and dems are also too much of a huge machine as well, I would love to see it carefully resolved, but really carefully. I have also seen what happens in places like Israel where they have many parties but are ready to fall apart and dissolve at any minute - its pretty bad, and there is a lot of theocratical holding hostage and abuse.


[color=indigo]Susan, I know you don't like this kind of discussion. I appreciate your insight, even though I do not always agree with you. Very Happy Just as you do not always agree with me. I do enjoy your posts.

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Post by pepperens on Mon May 18, 2009 5:10 am

callin' me boy... Don't bother me in the least...

Yes, this is innapropriate - considering it did not appear anywhere else in the entire dialogue.

It's not gossip... When it is obvious in both photographs and film... That Obama "bent the knee"... In other words.. he genuflected to a foreign monarch... And in so doing, effectively made the entire USA, King Abdullah' servile footstool..


IT is still lashon hara, and still gossip in the context of interpretation .

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