Search
 
 

Display results as :
 


Rechercher Advanced Search

Like/Tweet/+1
Latest topics
» Hilarious video A little garden fun by the cowboy poet Baxter Black
Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:54 am by mountainmama

» Facebook page
Sat Apr 30, 2016 6:48 pm by dizzy

» An Insurrection Coming
Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:52 am by 12acrehome

» Patrice's Patch Garden Journal
Sat Apr 02, 2016 8:47 am by PATRICE IN IL

» lambs and ewes
Wed Mar 23, 2016 11:46 pm by Farmfresh

» Irish Cuisine Class/Demonstration Recipes
Mon Mar 07, 2016 6:13 am by PATRICE IN IL

» Prayer request for my dh's aunt
Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:55 pm by PATRICE IN IL

» How has your day been and what's for dinner...................
Mon Feb 29, 2016 5:43 am by PATRICE IN IL

» Anyone Interested? - Pumpkin Seeds
Wed Feb 24, 2016 2:46 am by PATRICE IN IL

Keywords

Affiliates
free forum

Top posting users this week


Blade Maintenance

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Blade Maintenance

Post by 12acrehome on Tue Jan 31, 2012 2:21 pm

If you think about it, man cannot do alot of things that are done regularly without a blade. If you really think about it, man cannot have many of the things we take for granted without blades. Proof?? your car! None of the parts that go into manufacturing your car are possible without a blade of some sort. By now you realize I am not talking about just knives. Shovels, axes, saws, and knives are all common blades found on a homestead or mini-farm. Each one has a different requirement for sharpness. Even knives meant for different jobs have a different angle on the blade edge. To maintain an ideal sharpness for each tool means you should look closely at a new edge of each blade, and think about how it is to be used. Axes are used for chopping (says Mr. Obvious), that means the sharp edge is impacting a hard surface with great force. That edge must be tough, but not hard. The angle of the edge is wide, and the metal left fairly soft so it will not suffer damage during a hard days use. A fillet knife on the other hand is quite hard, with a very delicate edge that has a narrow angle profile. Usually the fillet knife will be single beveled, that is perfectly flat on one side, and ground at an angle on the other. Where as the ax is a double bevel, each side angling towards the other. These two extremes in design require different sharpening techniques. The ax is best sharpened with a file, follow the factory edge, and keep the point of where the two angles meet in the center of the blade. I do not recommend using power tools to sharpen any blade. Grinding on steel causes the piece to heat up. This build up of heat can cause the metal to become too brittle if quenched in water. Or too soft if allowed to cool naturally. As for the fillet knife, or any single bevel blade, it should be only sharpened on a stone by pushing the angled side toward the stone and away from you.

Those are the basics, if you have any specific questions, or more to add, please comment below.

Keith

_________________
Proverbs 28:19  He who works his land will have abundant food...

Genesis 1:29  Then God said,"I give you every seed bearing plant on the face of the whole earth, and every tree that has fruit with seed in it..."

http://christiancountryramblings.com/
avatar
12acrehome
Admin

Posts : 4596
Join date : 2012-01-27
Age : 49
Location : Sebree, Ky (USA)

https://www.facebook.com/keith.skaggs.9

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by jwscal1996 on Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:00 am

Thanks Keith, This is good info. I have fallen prey to the grinder. I'm in need of a good stone, any suggestions? Also what do you recommend for scissors of things like tin snips?

Joe

jwscal1996
Admin

Posts : 85
Join date : 2009-05-07

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by 12acrehome on Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:41 am

Good Questions!! I am sorry I cannot help with tin snips (never tried to sharpen them). For scissor sharpening I can't describe as well as the guy in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_for3f8opo the edge to work is hard to get at, and then there is the tightening to deal with also.

A sharpening stone is another can of worms. I have three bench stones, and four hand held stones. Some of these are specialized for only certain jobs. One of the hand helds is for use on my Scythe, and is not practical for other uses. My general use stones are one 6" dual sided (different grit on each side), and a 12" tri-stone. The thing to remember about stones is a bench mounted model should be firmly mounted so it will not move around while you are working with it, and do not drop it, a broken stone is nearly useless.

Here is a link to Amazon.com that shows a few good models. The Arkansas Tri hone would be my suggestion. If money is not an option, or you intend to use them alot look also at the Norton waterstone Kit.

http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=553346

Hope this helps.

Keith

_________________
Proverbs 28:19  He who works his land will have abundant food...

Genesis 1:29  Then God said,"I give you every seed bearing plant on the face of the whole earth, and every tree that has fruit with seed in it..."

http://christiancountryramblings.com/
avatar
12acrehome
Admin

Posts : 4596
Join date : 2012-01-27
Age : 49
Location : Sebree, Ky (USA)

https://www.facebook.com/keith.skaggs.9

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by Rohn on Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:43 am

Very good discussion and tips on keeping things sharp. For knives I use my stones and then for a final honing I have a leather strop that really puts a fine edge on all my knives. I have taken a two pieces of leather (I have lots of that stuff in the shop) and glued one on each side of a 1"x2.5"x10" chunk of wood. This gives me a bench strop with two sides one is smooth side of the leather and the other is the rough side. I charge the leather with honing compound and strop my knives first on the rough side and then a few times on the smooth side. This puts a razor edge on the blade.

For my lathe tools I have a slow speed grinder (1750 RPM) and since I don't hold the tool on very long it doesn't heat up. I have also used my grinder for knives that were extremely dull or chipped, but you must be very careful and just touch the wheel lightly for a few seconds at a time to keep from heating op the tool. Then they too must go to the bench stones and strop for final finish.
avatar
Rohn

Posts : 1353
Join date : 2011-12-31
Age : 60
Location : Eastern OH

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by 12acrehome on Thu Feb 16, 2012 2:24 pm

Yup, well said Rohn

are you by any chance using sapphire dust for your stropping compound??

_________________
Proverbs 28:19  He who works his land will have abundant food...

Genesis 1:29  Then God said,"I give you every seed bearing plant on the face of the whole earth, and every tree that has fruit with seed in it..."

http://christiancountryramblings.com/
avatar
12acrehome
Admin

Posts : 4596
Join date : 2012-01-27
Age : 49
Location : Sebree, Ky (USA)

https://www.facebook.com/keith.skaggs.9

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by Rohn on Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:21 pm

No. I have some kind of a white compound and I'm not sure what it is.
avatar
Rohn

Posts : 1353
Join date : 2011-12-31
Age : 60
Location : Eastern OH

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by 12acrehome on Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:37 am

bringing this forward for Evie's enjoyment

_________________
Proverbs 28:19  He who works his land will have abundant food...

Genesis 1:29  Then God said,"I give you every seed bearing plant on the face of the whole earth, and every tree that has fruit with seed in it..."

http://christiancountryramblings.com/
avatar
12acrehome
Admin

Posts : 4596
Join date : 2012-01-27
Age : 49
Location : Sebree, Ky (USA)

https://www.facebook.com/keith.skaggs.9

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by Evie1 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:11 am

Ha, I figured that. how fun. this leads us into high speed still. I do, as Rohn, sharpen my turning gouges on a slow speed grinder,I use 80 and 60 grit. aluminum Oxide wheel,s just a bit. because I am a beginner in wood turning, I spoiled myself and got a wolverine jeg. I am trying to teach myself the sharpening buy hand, and getting close. but the wolverine helps me get my angles right. I also mark my wheels to get the right agales I need to do the finials I do. I don't really strop my turning gouges. but do true them up some with a diamond stone, 6000 grit. also I use a ceramic stone and still. I do have black Arkansas stones. but mostly use them on my carving knives. I do strop my carving knifes, and use different grits of rouge. I like the white also. but do use others on a buffing wheel. red first, then white. I also use green on a, use all the time stropping, strop. to bring the bur back to flush. and sharp on my carving knives. I am still learning how to grind my gouges, and a grinder with out loosing my temper. and not quenching them so as not to crack them. but I still have lots to learn. on some of my old carbon steel gouges, I do have to be careful, or I will burn them up fast. soooooo I am also trying to learn how to re temper them. I am not sure how far back I can go on the steel. this is one of my most favorite subjects, so please continue , even at my exspence. love it. Evie
avatar
Evie1

Posts : 97
Join date : 2012-12-02
Age : 68
Location : Calif

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by Evie1 on Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:31 am

Rhon, just a guess, but maybe what you are using if it is a white powder, maybe it is Aluminum Oxide. some of the rouges are the same thing but just in a wax form. to help it hold to the leather or cardboard that you use to strop with. the different colors are just different grits as far as I know. red harsh, white, then green. and tons of other colors I have no clue on. heck you can use sand paper. and wet sand etc. in a pinch, you can run a knife along your blue genes and get the bur to line up. it is my understanding, and some one could set me straight. but sharpening is getting the edge so thin that it creates a bur, then keep sharpening to get the bur off. and standing straight, and levale. and as you carve or cut or what ever, you bend that sharp edge, creating a uneven edge, that is what stropping is for. to sharpen and stand up or take away those small particles of mettle away to make a very sharp and straight edge again. and then there is the be vale. hark hark. that would be how the knife inters and leaves the wood. ok Im done.
avatar
Evie1

Posts : 97
Join date : 2012-12-02
Age : 68
Location : Calif

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by 12acrehome on Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:16 pm

The perfect edge (in theory) is a meniscus, that is it has length, but no width. Each side of a blade tapering to a point so fine it will not reflect full sunlight when viewed edge on. Cut anything and this edge is no longer perfect. Being a single molecule in thickness it is very fragile, and easily chipped off. That burr you refer to is created by not fully breaking the edge when sharpening, some call it a feather, some a wire. A fine bit of steel is bending away from the stone or strop instead of being ground off. This wire or feather then gets in the way of the true edge when cutting is attempted. The causes are many, from too soft of an alloy (steel) to dragging the edge backwards on a stone or strop, and several other things. The only effective cure that I have found is to file the edge. As for drawing back your lathe tools, I would ask you to reconsider. Softer knives tend to bend, gouge deeply into a piece, and then become a missile as it is jerked from your hands, often the piece you are working on can blow up too, or be thrown from the lathe. A really hard blade made of a tool steel (like A2, D2,O1, 420SS, etc) can have a rockwell hardness of 68 and still be flexible and fairly ductile. Heat treatment and tempering requires many cycles of heating to critical temp (up to 1,900 degrees) and holding the steel at temp for in some cases hours, followed by quenching in oil, water, dry ice, or just air cooling, then heating to 380 to 750 degrees (or more when you get into some stainless alloys) and air cooling after a time at draw temp. Without knowing the exact alloy and how it was tempered when manufactured, anything you do would be just a guess, and may have no effect, or may ruin a blade. Now for grins and giggles you can take a saws-all blade and see if you can soften or harden it. That'll give you some idea of what you could be up against when working with unknown metals.

_________________
Proverbs 28:19  He who works his land will have abundant food...

Genesis 1:29  Then God said,"I give you every seed bearing plant on the face of the whole earth, and every tree that has fruit with seed in it..."

http://christiancountryramblings.com/
avatar
12acrehome
Admin

Posts : 4596
Join date : 2012-01-27
Age : 49
Location : Sebree, Ky (USA)

https://www.facebook.com/keith.skaggs.9

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by Evie1 on Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:00 am

shazammm. you have such great knowledge. I wonted to quote you and add in my points of view at each point. but didn't know how to do that. I don't understand all the methods to create the right still or irons, for the right purpose for each tool. I do understand how to sharpen my wood turning tools compared to my carving tools. I never pull my wood turning tools back on a strop, or stone. I hand hone them buy hand . you can if you have a sort hand and a keen eye. but I just use my wheels, and hone buy hand. on my carving tools. I do. but the flute is much more shallower. and can sweep back and forth , I use a very hard strop. and press very lightly, so not to curl the edg into the strop.. I do understand what a wire is, never heard it as being a feather. and have a bright light, and mag light to see the edge, also for my knives. the bevale is important. I also understand a hollow ground carving tool. and a micro bevale. I also understand stones, some. I understand that using oil and water cleans the mettale out of the pours, but the one thing I don't like about stones , is they will grove. and on carvng tools and other tools . if not cleaned off realy good can get that into your wood. not a good thing. the other thing I am woundering about is this quot . ((( As for drawing back your lathe tools, I would ask you to reconsider. Softer knives tend to bend, gouge deeply into a piece, and then become a missile as it is jerked from your hands, often the piece you are working on can blow up too, or be thrown from the lathe. )))) now this is scary, but wondering how this might happen.
also. I am trying to learn the colors of over heating my tools. on my oxide wheels I have never burned anything. but on the old carbon steel gouges, I do get some burn, and I watch the colors. on my new gouges that do have a hardness of 68. I just don't worry about it. I can grind them down to nothing, and never get a color on my slow grinder, and white wheels.
the things you make are way beyond my learning. and I love that you are teaching me.
the one thing I would love to know is, on your one post you talk about your knife you make. quote ((((((A fillet knife on the other hand is quite hard, with a very delicate edge that has a narrow angle profile. Usually the fillet knife will be single beveled, that is perfectly flat on one side, and ground at an angle on the other. Where as the ax is a double bevel,))))), Ok, I have never heard of this knife. could you tell me, how it is used. I do understand how a carpenters chisel is made and why. one angle for getting into the wood, then the flat to cut a flat or straight plain,leavaling your cut. and the angele on a carving knife to get in and out of a cut. the ax to chop down and spit the wood. but what does yours do?
also you said,quote (((without knowing the exact alloy and how it was tempered when manufactured, anything you do would be just a guess, and may have no effect, or may ruin a blade. )))))) I am sure you are so right. but. there is a color chart to let you know how hot . and also sparks . say I am trying to sharpen a wood turning gouge. and doing it on a wheel. the sparks coming off the mettle . would be a surtain shape, like sparklers. the older carbon still would have sparks coming out with little sparkles at the end. bigger sparkales. hoho. and the harder stills would have the same but the sparkales at the end would be tinny. I sure could be set straight on much of this. I am just learning, and love learning more. I do get buy, but gosh wonder how many tools I have hurt buy not knowing all the stuff you talk about. geese. I just love doing wood working , and keepin my garden tools sharp. thanks for all your input. not easy to put this stuff in a small post.
avatar
Evie1

Posts : 97
Join date : 2012-12-02
Age : 68
Location : Calif

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by 12acrehome on Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:39 pm

Evie1 wrote: I am woundering about is this quot . ((( As for drawing back your lathe tools, I would ask you to reconsider. Softer knives tend to bend, gouge deeply into a piece, and then become a missile as it is jerked from your hands, often the piece you are working on can blow up too, or be thrown from the lathe. )))) now this is scary, but wondering how this might happen.

The too soft blade bends or deflects more than wanted and grabs too deeply for the edge to shave off. The work piece is spinning at 500 to maybe 750 rpm and due to the outer diameter and the force of spinning (the torque and leverage) can strip the tool from your hands and throw it in about any direction.

also. I am trying to learn the colors of over heating my tools. on my oxide wheels I have never burned anything. but on the old carbon steel gouges, I do get some burn, and I watch the colors. on my new gouges that do have a hardness of 68. I just don't worry about it. I can grind them down to nothing, and never get a color on my slow grinder, and white wheels.
color on the wheel is of little concern, but the blade turning straw colored, or worse blue, means you have heated the steel to the point that carbon has been removed from the metal. Iron has nearly no carbon, steel, by definition must have a certain amount of carbon, the more carbon, the harder the steel can be

the things you make are way beyond my learning. and I love that you are teaching me.
the one thing I would love to know is, on your one post you talk about your knife you make. quote ((((((A fillet knife on the other hand is quite hard, with a very delicate edge that has a narrow angle profile. Usually the fillet knife will be single beveled, that is perfectly flat on one side, and ground at an angle on the other. Where as the ax is a double bevel,))))), Ok, I have never heard of this knife. could you tell me, how it is used. I


.

As for the knife, well I've made three, and am waiting for feedback before moving to sell it. No trade secret just an old school chefs blade grind. One side of the steel bar stock that is to be the blade is polished, but never ground, and this side never sees the sharpening stone. The blade is ground in straight taper from spine to edge, hardened to 60 to 68 Rockwell then polished to a mirror finish, and sharpened from one side only. More years ago than I'll admit to Wink I worked my way through collage as a waiter in a 4 star restaurant complete with chef, line cooks, prep cooks, etc. The chef, for reasons long lost to time, and I were discussing knives one day and he told me about this special edge. He demonstrated how it would cut smoother and straighter than a traditional knife edge that is beveled on both sides. The side that is left flat holds a straight line against whatever is being cut. The sliced off part is pushed away from the blade. When filleting fish, a slab can be cut from the body, with skin on, and then this edge will separate the skin and meat quickly and easily. I prefer a spring temper so that the handle portion is held off the work surface, but the blade remains flat against the surface.

_________________
Proverbs 28:19  He who works his land will have abundant food...

Genesis 1:29  Then God said,"I give you every seed bearing plant on the face of the whole earth, and every tree that has fruit with seed in it..."

http://christiancountryramblings.com/
avatar
12acrehome
Admin

Posts : 4596
Join date : 2012-01-27
Age : 49
Location : Sebree, Ky (USA)

https://www.facebook.com/keith.skaggs.9

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by Evie1 on Sat Dec 08, 2012 7:13 am

great stuff. I was wondering if you do any turning. ?? your knife sounds wonderful. have to look into that for sure. and maybe have you make me one.
thanks for all your teaching. I guess I have tons more to learn.
avatar
Evie1

Posts : 97
Join date : 2012-12-02
Age : 68
Location : Calif

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by 12acrehome on Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:55 pm

No I do not turn wood, my father-in-law and my wifes cousin both turn game calls. Jonathon does it professionally. So if I need something turned I go to one of them and observe. Until five years ago I had access to a metal turning lathe and an end mill. I made a few wrenches, and some custom pieces for my muzzleloaders. I also learned to turn cannon barrels. Wood turning is just something I never got into.

_________________
Proverbs 28:19  He who works his land will have abundant food...

Genesis 1:29  Then God said,"I give you every seed bearing plant on the face of the whole earth, and every tree that has fruit with seed in it..."

http://christiancountryramblings.com/
avatar
12acrehome
Admin

Posts : 4596
Join date : 2012-01-27
Age : 49
Location : Sebree, Ky (USA)

https://www.facebook.com/keith.skaggs.9

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by mountainmama on Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:34 pm

Thanks for bumping this!

mountainmama

Posts : 606
Join date : 2012-04-11
Location : WV

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by 12acrehome on Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:47 pm

you're welcome

_________________
Proverbs 28:19  He who works his land will have abundant food...

Genesis 1:29  Then God said,"I give you every seed bearing plant on the face of the whole earth, and every tree that has fruit with seed in it..."

http://christiancountryramblings.com/
avatar
12acrehome
Admin

Posts : 4596
Join date : 2012-01-27
Age : 49
Location : Sebree, Ky (USA)

https://www.facebook.com/keith.skaggs.9

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by Harvey_Birdman on Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:19 pm

12acrehome wrote:If you think about it, man cannot do alot of things that are done regularly without a blade. If you really think about it, man cannot have many of the things we take for granted without blades. Proof?? your car! None of the parts that go into manufacturing your car are possible without a blade of some sort. By now you realize I am not talking about just knives. Shovels, axes, saws, and knives are all common blades found on a homestead or mini-farm. Each one has a different requirement for sharpness. Even knives meant for different jobs have a different angle on the blade edge. To maintain an ideal sharpness for each tool means you should look closely at a new edge of each blade, and think about how it is to be used. Axes are used for chopping (says Mr. Obvious), that means the sharp edge is impacting a hard surface with great force. That edge must be tough, but not hard. The angle of the edge is wide, and the metal left fairly soft so it will not suffer damage during a hard days use. A fillet knife on the other hand is quite hard, with a very delicate edge that has a narrow angle profile. Usually the fillet knife will be single beveled, that is perfectly flat on one side, and ground at an angle on the other. Where as the ax is a double bevel, each side angling towards the other. These two extremes in design require different sharpening techniques. The ax is best sharpened with a file, follow the factory edge, and keep the point of where the two angles meet in the center of the blade. I do not recommend using power tools to sharpen any blade. Grinding on steel causes the piece to heat up. This build up of heat can cause the metal to become too brittle if quenched in water. Or too soft if allowed to cool naturally. As for the fillet knife, or any single bevel blade, it should be only sharpened on a stone by pushing the angled side toward the stone and away from you.

Those are the basics, if you have any specific questions, or more to add, please comment below.

Keith

I am a knife nut! I use several diffrent knives with several diffrent blade profiles. Your info is good, but your terminology is a bit off. A fillet knife is a single bevel, however an axe is not a double bevel it is a convex bevel. this means that the t angles roll inward as they come together. A double bevel (also called an America bevel) is like most pocket knives You hav a flat stock at the spine then it is beveled at one angle, then just before the edge there is a secondary bevel to the edge of the blade. a Single bevel (also called a scandinvian bevel) you have flat stock at the spine, and the a bevel that continues on the same angle to the edge. A chisel grind is when only one side of the blade is shrpened ussualy in a single bevel patern. there are several other bevels, but these are the most common.

Having, and using so many diffrent blade geometries I use several diffrent sharpening methods. I like to keep all of my blades working sharp. That is to say I don't get concerned if it won't shave, but I make sure to resherpen before it "needs" to be sharpened.

As far as a sharpening system goes, for the blades most people use (American bevels) I would suggest the Lansky sharpening system. It is idot proof. The guides make the perfect angle every time. Very Happy

God bless,
Chad
avatar
Harvey_Birdman

Posts : 485
Join date : 2013-03-15
Age : 34
Location : Kentucky

http://homesteadingpreacherman.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by Harvey_Birdman on Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:23 pm

I would also like to say that I use a belt sander on all of my convex edged tools/knives. There is very little heat build up, and with practice a great edge can be produced. I keep all of my axes shaving sharp. They are the only blades that I make sure will shave hair before I use them, but I use them for bushcraft not just choping wood for the stove.
avatar
Harvey_Birdman

Posts : 485
Join date : 2013-03-15
Age : 34
Location : Kentucky

http://homesteadingpreacherman.blogspot.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Blade Maintenance

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum