The Role of the Church in Instituting Martial Law

Here ya go Dawn. Some fodder for the mill. **wondering if I'm going to regret this one**

The Role of the Church in Instituting Martial Law

The government has been training ministers to convince their congregations to submit to government authority in the event of a martial law crackdown, based upon Romans 13. The argument is that Romans 13 states that Christians must submit to government authority, since the government is divinely empowered and sustained. This is the same argument which Adolph Hitler used in order to convince the German churches to follow him and his policies.

However, Romans 13 does not teach subservience. Rather, as explained by a Baptist minister Chuck Baldwin, Romans 13 actually says something very different:

"Paul … said, ‘Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.' Meaning, our obedience to civil authority is more than just ‘because they said so.' It is also a matter of conscience. This means we must think and reason for ourselves regarding the justness and rightness of our government's laws. Obedience is not automatic or robotic. It is a result of both rational deliberation and moral approbation.

Therefore, there are times when civil authority may need to be resisted. Either governmental abuse of power or the violation of conscience (or both) could precipitate civil disobedience."

The Bible therefore requires that Christians resist imposition of martial law based upon false pretenses or upon an abuse of power.

Similarly, Romans 13 teaches that any government that is a "terror to good works" is acting beyond its authority and must be resisted .

Therefore, Romans 13 compels us to resist and remove from power elements of the U.S. government which participated in the 9/11 attacks or are planning to carry out further false flag attacks.

And remember that neoconservatives use religion to manipulate people, even though they themselves are usually not religious. So the government hacks pushing Romans 13 as an excuse for fascism and government-sponsored terror likely do not themselves even believe in the Bible.

http://www.jeremiahproject.com/prophecy/wakeup.html

I would say one word could help believer differentiate between loyaty to God and loyalty to the state...

Abortion.....

It is legal by government standards... And infanticide by Christian standards..

Let us not forget that the writer of the Roman letter.. Was himself imprisioned and executed by the Roman state....

IMHO... When God's moral laws are compromised by governmental edicts... Our loyalty, must be with God....

Keep in mind that Jesus said that we were to love Him more than our own Mother, Father, or even our own children.... I do not know of anyone, who would not stand up for their family, if they were charged with a political "crime"..... How much more should we resist legalized immorality, when it presents itself?

It is also good to remember that in the USA, by Constitutional right.. We are in fact the government of the USA... Not the concentrated cesspool that is Washington DC....

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Allright I am biting. ( and you know Katrina I shouldn't )

Let us first resolve what is a presumption.
It is a presumption that any government is ordained by God. There are just as many verses pointed out by other Christians who strongly believe in a separation of church and state , and one can say God controls and sets in motion bird flight , a monkey eating, and a person farming , and this is no more significant than who is teaching what class in school or who is sitting in a presidents seat. So discussing a bird in flight should have the same level of importance and significance because we don't know the mysteries. To give government extreme "ordained" importance is to some Christians idolatry.
It is also a presumption that a minister has any ultimate spiritual authority over non-ministers.
It is also a presumption that the government is "training" anyone to do anything in regards to church and state- no more than anything else- no clearer or more attention.
It is true there are a lot of people .... ministers *and* people both .... that buy into a government being ordained by God.
And there are people who do try to buy into a "church state"- or somehow presume a "nation" relationship with God instead of a *personal* relationship with God ....and form a victim mentality that the "government"
( who does not have ultimate spiritual authority )
is "training" ministers -
(who also don't have ultimate spiritual authority)
- to train an individual will ,
( an individual is the only one who has ultimate personal authority of choosing their relationship with God ) that they can be a victim of another person's will in a martial law.
It might make sense to "listen" to martial law in an event of a crisis, but it all depends on exactly "what" that Martial Law is.
If it means rounding up foreignors in camps - I will not listen.
If it means staying inside and turning off your lights because of a potential air raid - well that might be common sense.

The word tell us that we are to submit to the authority of our government unless it goes against God's laws.

<<The word tell us that we are to submit to the authority of our government unless it goes against God's laws.>>

Yes, the above statement is what I am at most , familiar with.

Gods laws *are* " Do onto others" . The Ten commandments are a basic guide .
If people "obey" the laws in a land which are about peaceful co-existance , they generally fullfill "do onto others", and generally fullfill the ten commandments.
There is a neat logical reasoning behind this.
But, some notion about following Pol Pot, idi amin, hitler, southern white slavery, or what have you, is not in line and is not to be considered God's will but a corruption of God's will. God's will is to follow the ten commandments and what they mean in spirit.
And some notion of bowing down the idols if it is the law of the land is also a corruption of God's will.

RevJack wrote:Idolatry is the worship of a cut idol, not submission to an elected authority.

If the government, in securing national defense goes into a martial law lockdown, it isnt idolatry to submit and cooperate.

To run admiringly after it to the exclusion of Gods word, thats idolatry.

Idolatry is not just a "cut" idol".
Pharoah ...as a person ........ put himself up as a human idol . So did the Roman leaders , and also had idols attributed to themselves - but the initial idolatry is in putting *anything* before God - period.
This is why many confuse themselves about idolatry and fall into it . If they coddle themselves into thinking only be an inanimate object with intention of worship can be an idol, they fool themselves into all kinds of idol problems such as money, putting leaders before God, and ministers before God, and not having a personal relationship with God.
This is why Jesus brought in such an important era - to bring in an time in which the true meaning of personal relationship with God should be seen as prime, through the individual with God, not through a person, priest, object, land as prime over God , or the only way to reach God.
But, it is true, that you mentioning that exclusion of God, and worshipping a law first , is a type of idolatry.

Ohh...If I wasn't so sleepy....I will get back to this tomorrow.

I'm baaack.....

I can see the Government forcing churches to talk members into submitting to martial law. I can even see them doing it for safety purposes. One thing I have noticed about many churches is that they want to keep their status. As this administration slowly tries to ignore Christianity (Obama asking for religious symbols to be covered while he is speaking) it will ultimately try and stamp it out.

We should submit to our government unless they go against God's laws. Which, like Susan said, are the Ten Commandments and do unto others. We will not always have others do unto us in the same manner though. If the government threatens my family I am not going to be as willing to submit to them. If they threaten my freedom I am not going to be as willing to submit to them.

<<<We should submit to our government unless they go against God's laws. Which, like Susan said, are the Ten Commandments and do unto others. We will not always have others do unto us in the same manner though. If the government threatens my family I am not going to be as willing to submit to them. If they threaten my freedom I am not going to be as willing to submit to them.>>>

I think thats a fair and reasonable view.
There are reasons why it was important that people hid Jews , Roma, and whoever was persecuted by the Nazi's - they were going against the so called " law" in their current state environment.
And as we know that is why it is specifically mentioned that it was a "mixed" multitude that left Egypt. There were the persecuted Israelites, and there were also those righteous ones who would not buy into the oppression of a pharoah who set himself up as an idol.
The laws of the Massachusetts Bay Colony committed the same idolatrous oppression - allowing politics to get in the way of personal relationship , which is why those left and went to Rhode Island keeping the state away from faith, so faith could endure.
For government to be influencing "churches" in the end I don't recognize any "church " having ultimate authority over my relationship with God - or government. And if one keeps that focus, and more people keep that focus, then the "government" if misusing power in any way, would only be breathing hot air. The Amish and Anabaptist leaders don't have governemt of any kind of their radar, so there simply would be no influence.
The influence of "church" or any religious or faith based insititution I recognize the strength of community and oneness that they provide to learn from, and give order to life from day to day and support in teaching.
Also, Ten commandments and Do onto others is the perfect guide to knowing whether the state law is in compliance with what works in a current community.
The larger and more diverse a community does present a more complex challenge for peaceful coexistance, but that is the challenge more than a significant sign.We can't allow state power or church power to take away focus from individual communion with our creator.

7dawn wrote:

I'm baaack.....

I can see the Government forcing churches to talk members into submitting to martial law. I can even see them doing it for safety purposes. One thing I have noticed about many churches is that they want to keep their status. As this administration slowly tries to ignore Christianity (Obama asking for religious symbols to be covered while he is speaking) it will ultimately try and stamp it out.

Mornin' Dawn.....

Oh... How apropos!... Mornin'.... Dawn... Nyuck!, Nyuck!, Nyuck!

Ahem!.. Anyhow.....

Have you ever heard of double jeopardy?..... And I don't mean the one with Alex Trebek....

IMHO... The Institution of organized religion has become a weed in the Garden of Eden... It is not Scriptural, because it is, by its very existence, both a root of bitterness and divisiveness... The message of Christ comes in somewhere behind the message of maintaining the machinery of organized religion i. e.. maintaining and building, at great cost, the philosophy of "I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones"... Barns which are more edifices dedicated to the egos of those who build them.. Rather than, houses of true worship.... This becomes clear, when we realize that our Master was born in a real barn, cattle, donkeys and everything....

However like Paul said.....

Philippians 1:17 Those others do not have pure motives as they preach about Christ. They preach with selfish ambition, not sincerely, intending to make my chains more painful to me.

Phl 1:18 But whether or not their motives are pure, the fact remains that the message about Christ is being preached, so I rejoice. And I will continue to rejoice.

Another thing that I have learned, is that all too often Denominations are so concerned with the maintenance, care and upkeep of the walls of doctrinal boundaries... Boundaries which to me, by the way, are instilled for economic reasons, more-so than Biblical ones.... As a consequence.. Much of modern institutionalized, denominational, organized religion, falls into this....

Isaiah 29:13 And so the Lord says, "These people say they are mine. They honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far away. And their worship of me amounts to nothing more than human laws learned by rote.

This is not to say that all believers fall into this category... Not at all.. It is more akin to this example.....

Matthew 23:2 "The teachers of religious law and the Pharisees are the official interpreters of the Scriptures.

Mat 23:3 So practice and obey whatever they say to you, but don't follow their example. For they don't practice what they teach.

Mat 23:4 They crush you with impossible religious demands and never lift a finger to help ease the burden.

I would also forward, that individual shepherds have within their scope of influence... To feed the lambs in their care, a more unadulterated spiritual milk and solid food... Then other shepherds within the same doctrinal system of belief... Kinda like Martin Luther did...

7dawn wrote:

We should submit to our government unless they go against God's laws. Which, like Susan said, are the Ten Commandments and do unto others. We will not always have others do unto us in the same manner though. If the government threatens my family I am not going to be as willing to submit to them. If they threaten my freedom I am not going to be as willing to submit to them.

I would daresay that all too often human beings fall into a herd mentality.... Hence the reference by Jesus of "Sheep without a shepherd".. And the modern term of sheeple.....

IMHO.. far and away, too many believers fall into this....

2 Timothy 3:5 They will act as if they are religious, but they will reject the power that could make them godly. You must stay away from people like that.

Because they have not opened themselves up to this...

Hebrews 8:10 But this is the new covenant I will make with the people of Israel on that day, says the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds so they will understand them, and I will write them on their hearts so they will obey them. I will be their God, and they will be my people.

Hbr 8:11 And they will not need to teach their neighbors, nor will they need to teach their family, saying, `You should know the Lord.' For everyone, from the least to the greatest, will already know me.

Because they have not heeded this...

Romans 12:1 And so, dear brothers and sisters, I plead with you to give your bodies to God. Let them be a living and holy sacrifice--the kind he will accept. When you think of what he has done for you, is this too much to ask?

Rom 12:2 Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world, but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think. Then you will know what God wants you to do, and you will know how good and pleasing and perfect his will really is.

Rom 12:3 As God's messenger, I give each of you this warning: Be honest in your estimate of yourselves, measuring your value by how much faith God has given you.

Because they want this....

1Samuel 8:5 "Look," they told him, "you are now old, and your sons are not like you. Give us a king like all the other nations have."

1Sa 8:6 Samuel was very upset with their request and went to the LORD for advice.

1Sa 8:7 "Do as they say," the LORD replied, "for it is me they are rejecting, not you. They don't want me to be their king any longer.

By so doing... In their hearts, they have usurped Jesus as Lord and King and have replace Him with earthly kings and bureaucrats...

Hosea 13:10 Where now is your king? Why don't you call on him for help? Where are all the leaders of the land? You asked for them, now let them save you!

Hosea 13:11 In my anger I gave you kings, and in my fury I took them away

IMHO... I am not surprised in the least that the USA has become a rudderless ship of state....

Because more than a few Christians have fallen into this....

Revelation 2:2 "I know all the things you do. I have seen your hard work and your patient endurance. I know you don't tolerate evil people. You have examined the claims of those who say they are apostles but are not. You have discovered they are liars.

Rev 2:3 You have patiently suffered for me without quitting.

Rev 2:4 But I have this complaint against you. You don't love me or each other as you did at first!

Rev 2:5 Look how far you have fallen from your first love! Turn back to me again and work as you did at first. If you don't, I will come and remove your lampstand from its place among the churches.

Because, as we all know...

Luke 16:13 "No one can serve two masters. For you will hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other.

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IMHO... I am not surprised in the least that the USA has become a rudderless ship of state....


Well said.
I add that "USA" is not a person - but a state. So it falls under a different function than that of a personal relationship with God.
Because each individual is different, a "state" is only to fullfill a function of appropriate governing for peaceful co-existance. It is not the function of communion directly with God.
A faith based organization is supposed to be a community of those who already are under a like decision of how one carries out faith within their own community. It will have "doctrinal" laws - they are either paths, or they are walls. When they become too much ritual law they lose their meaning.
In the end, the individual and their faith is what is with a rudder - the others really do not serve that function, and neither should they except to maintian civil balance .


<<<I can see the Government forcing churches to talk members into submitting to martial law. >>>

We had Nazis, so "government" can possibly force anything if there is abuse of power, but I see no real evidence of that where I am living.

<<<I can even see them doing it for safety purposes..>

This I could see under a civil situations.

<<<One thing I have noticed about many churches is that they want to keep their status. As this administration slowly tries to ignore Christianity (Obama asking for religious symbols to be covered while he is speaking) it will ultimately try and stamp it out.>>>>

The state should be separate from government - because government should *not* be involved with influencing ministers , should not infoce churches to inforce martial law, and should not be touting religious symbols .
If one insists that government tout religious symbols, there is that blurred edge in which then goverment officials *would* think they have influence over churches to insititute martial law.
Separation does not mean secular - it means separation-one is state, the other is faith based or "church". One may separate oranges and apples for its current meaning, but it does not mean that the oranges or apples do not exist.

CP said:

Mornin' Dawn.....

Oh... How apropos!... Mornin'.... Dawn... Nyuck!, Nyuck!, Nyuck!

Ahem!.. Anyhow.....

Well you Cotton Picker...LOL! Good morning to you too!


CP said:

IMHO... The Institution of organized religion has become a weed in the Garden of Eden... It is not Scriptural, because it is, by its very existence, both a root of bitterness and divisiveness... The message of Christ comes in somewhere behind the message of maintaining the machinery of organized religion i. e.. maintaining and building, at great cost, the philosophy of "I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones"... Barns which are more edifices dedicated to the egos of those who build them.. Rather than, houses of true worship.... This becomes clear, when we realize that our Master was born in a real barn, cattle donkeys and everything....

You have absolutely no clue how much I agree with this statement. I haven't been in a church of any denomination in 3 years. I prefer home study. I have had Katrina as my teacher for the past 5 years.

CP said:

IMHO... I am not surprised in the least that the USA has become a rudderless ship of state....

I totally agree with this too. Our government has gotten too big. If people were to take a closer look at our Constitution and read it in context they would clearly see the intent of the men that founded this nation. We have gone so far away from the original roots of this country and the freedom that it was founded on that it makes me sick.

I do not think there is anything that you said or quoted that I do not totally agree with. I can still see the churches either being forced to help with martial law or doing it willingly because though they may have all seen the Matrix they have taken the wrong pill...

I recommend that all Christians watch the movie Devil's Advocate with Al Pacino and Keanu Reeves. It is a bit scary, if one is scared of that type of stuff...The mirror scenes were what I had a problem with, but the message of that movie was excellent. I do not know if the writer was a Christian or not, but he sure knew his stuff...Vanity...It is all vanity...

God Bless!

Susan said:

allowing politics to get in the way of personal relationship

I see this happening with the Obama administration, more so than any other that I have really known anything about. I do not agree with the government getting involved with religion but do not see anywhere in the Constitution that it says government officials cannot be involved in religion. But this is another can of worms...

7dawn wrote:Susan said:

allowing politics to get in the way of personal relationship

I see this happening with the Obama administration, more so than any other that I have really known anything about. I do not agree with the government getting involved with religion but do not see anywhere in the Constitution that it says government officials cannot be involved in religion. But this is another can of worms...

Actually,through one window I see this - it is likely a correction of some of the suspicious activity in which some denominational church "leaders" have tried in the past to move into the white house and institute their personal denomination brand over everything and everyone else. That was quite clear to me and quite disturbing.
By refusing to display religious banners or symbols as a public official, this is an important way to not allow politics to get in the way of personal relationship with God. It is good that Obama does exactly that and it is the right thing.
Some people want to be victims , and claim the government influences churches with martial law, but then get upset when the government does not become a church state like back in the medieval period where they did insititute martial law through churches.
Being forty nine, I don't see either happening now .
((So there is no confusion to address past court cases ....I don't believe that Atheists specifically are truly secular as they claim ... because they are still making a declaration of faith , because there is no straightforward proof there is no God, just as there is no straightforward proof there is a God -but refusing the display banners as idols has nothing to do with atheists or forced secular )) It is important to remember that some religious symbols are idols to some Christians because they believe in *no* imagry at all !
Once again, separation apples and oranges is not an act of opposition, nor does it discount the other as existing, it is putting each ritual in their appropriate place.
I would do the same, I would be very careful about keeping a nuetral background as a public official in most cases . That does *not* make me personally secular. It means I represent everyone - those who believe in religious symbols, and others who believe symbols could be idols.
Also, people who are looking to create hysteria are going to point out every single moment in which a government official is working to keep careful separation, and blow it up into a non-existant forced personal secularism.
Just as other journalists do the opposite - to try to create anything faith based into a hysteria.
Its time people took responsiblity and instead looked in the mirror and immediately strengthen their communities and themselves - not by pointing fingers, but by healing.
I am with you Dawn, there are some things in our communities that need a lot of work. But it needs to be done by thinking carefully outside the box - it needs to happen within as well as without.

pepperens wrote:
Actually,through one window I see this - it is likely a correction of some of the suspicious activity in which some denominational church "leaders" have tried in the past to move into the white house and institute their personal denomination brand over everything and everyone else. That was quite clear to me and quite disturbing.

While I have not personally seen the line of thought you are expressing... I too am opposed to pushing one "Brand" of Christianity above another.... Paul dealt with it too...

1 Corinthians 1:12 Some of you are saying, "I am a follower of Paul." Others are saying, "I follow Apollos," or "I follow Peter," or "I follow only Christ."

1Cr 1:13 Can Christ be divided into pieces? Was I, Paul, crucified for you? Were any of you baptized in the name of Paul?

pepperens wrote:
By refusing to display religious banners or symbols as a public official, this is an important way to not allow politics to get in the way of personal relationship with God. It is good that Obama does exactly that and it is the right thing.

While I do believe that the POTUS should not engage in the active promotion of any one religion... I also believe that he should not go into a place that has prominent symbols placed and insist that they be covered.... It's kinda like sweeping it under the rug... Everyone knows, what's under there... A' la.. The emperors new clothes... IMHO... The POTUS should not choose to address the nation in places that would contradict his political neutrality... Much like one would not make a pitch for a vegan diet... Inside of a steakhouse... Providing the steaks were covered first.. Of course...

pepperens wrote:
Some people want to be victims , and claim the government influences churches with martial law, but then get upset when the government does not become a church state like back in the medieval period where they did insititute martial law through churches.

There has been... And always will be... Weak-minded radicals... Who are as Robert E. Lee said of John Bell Hood... "All lion and no fox".... Just because someone is in your face... Does not mean that the country should pass laws to appease them... As is more often done, in this country... To placate the godless (In the name of fair-minded, tolerance and inclusiveness)... Rather than the godly.

pepperens wrote:
((So there is no confusion to address past court cases ....I don't believe that Atheists specifically are truly secular as they claim ... because they are still making a declaration of faith , because there is no straightforward proof there is no God, just as there is no straightforward proof there is a God -but refusing the display banners as idols has nothing to do with atheists or forced secular )) It is important to remember that some religious symbols are idols to some Christians because they believe in *no* imagry at all !

Once again, separation apples and oranges is not an act of opposition, nor does it discount the other as existing, it is putting each ritual in their appropriate place.

IMHO... Everyone with self-awareness, has a god and a faith-based belief system....

Belief in science, to the exclusion of acknowledging God... Is by default a separate religion of scientific worship... Belief in one's self, to the exclusion of God... Is by default a religion of self-worship.. And so on...

pepperens wrote:
I would do the same, I would be very careful about keeping a nuetral background as a public official in most cases . That does *not* make me personally secular. It means I represent everyone - those who believe in religious symbols, and others who believe symbols could be idols.

By employing that logic.. Are you implying that when President Barack Obama genuflected before the Saudi Arabian King Abdullah.. He was, in fact, representing everyone?...

I can tell you for myself... Please exclude me from your list...

Update: See Miss Manners on the protocol. Americans do not bow to foreign monarchs because that act signified the monarch's power over his subjects.

Here is the protocol from the Queen of England's website -- which applies even to her own subjects:

"The Queen meets thousands of people each year in the UK and overseas. Before meeting Her Majesty, many people ask how they should behave. The simple answer is that there are no obligatory codes of behaviour - just courtesy.

However, many people wish to observe the traditional forms of greeting.

For men this is a neck bow (from the head only) whilst women do a small curtsy. Other people prefer simply to shake hands in the usual way.

On presentation to The Queen, the correct formal address is 'Your Majesty' and subsequently 'Ma'am'."

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/04/obama_bows_down_to_saudi_king.html

pepperens wrote:
Also, people who are looking to create hysteria are going to point out every single moment in which a government official is working to keep careful separation, and blow it up into a non-existant forced personal secularism.

I would say that it is only hysteria.. To those who find themselves in disagreement with the dissenter(s)...

"Those who profess to favor freedom, yet deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightening. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will."

-- Frederick Douglass

pepperens wrote:
Just as other journalists do the opposite - to try to create anything faith based into a hysteria.

IMHO... Those who swallow, hook, line and sinker... Whatever they see and/or hear in the Infotainment, print and/or audio, and/or audio visual. MSM or any media, for that matter..... Are just like this...

"A people may prefer a free government, but if, from indolence, or carelessness, or cowardice, or want of public spirit, they are unequal to the exertions necessary for preserving it; if they will not fight for it when it is directly attacked; if they can be deluded by the artifices used to cheat them out of it; if by momentary discouragement, or temporary panic, or a fit of enthusiasm for an individual, they can be induced to lay their liberties at the feet even of a great man, or trust him with powers which enable him to subvert their institutions; in all these cases they are more or less unfit for liberty: and though it may be for their good to have had it even for a short time, they are unlikely long to enjoy it."

-- John Stuart Mill, Representative Government, 1861

pepperens wrote:
Its time people took responsiblity and instead looked in the mirror and immediately strengthen their communities and themselves

True....

"A free society cannot work unless people take charge of their lives and assume responsibility for their actions."

-- Jim Powell

pepperens wrote:
- not by pointing fingers, but by healing.

Sometimes you have to destroy a rotten house... In order to rebuild it properly....

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. ... God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion; what country can preserve its liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms."

-- Thomas Jefferson to William Stephens Smith, 1787

pepperens wrote:
I am with you Dawn, there are some things in our communities that need a lot of work. But it needs to be done by thinking carefully outside the box - it needs to happen within as well as without.

Very true...

"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat."

-- Theodore Roosevelt

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