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Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

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Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by Sonshine on Mon May 11, 2009 2:32 am

Continuing on with the list. Our second topic is universal apostasy.

2 Thessalonians 2
1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Ok, this may get controversial, but I'm going for it any way. As I understand it, the Day of our Lord is the Second Coming. Therefore, in reading this passage, Paul specifically says that the Day of the Lord will not come until after the apostasy, which if I understand this correctly, means that this pretty much rules out a pre-tribulation rapture, correct?

Vs. 2:3 falling away, or the apostasy. An aggressive and climactic revolt against God that will prepare the way for the appearance of the man of sin (see 1 Tim. 4:1-5; 2 Tim. 3:1-5). man of sin. Lit., man of lawlessness. Although it is true that the forces of lawlessness were at work in Paul's time and are at work today (notice v. 7, "the mystery of iniquity doth already work"), the man of lawlessness (also called "that Wicked," v. 8; lit., the lawless one) is an individual of the future who will come to power during the tribulation days. John also recognized the presence of many antichrists in his time (1 John 2:18) as well as the coming of one great Antichrist in the future (Rev. 11:7; 13:1-10). be revealed. When Antichrist signs the covenant with Israel at the beginning of the Tribulation (Dan. 9:27), he will be identified by some for who he is.

The English word "apostasy" is derived from a Greek word (apostasia) that means, "to stand away from." The Greek noun occurs twice in the New Testament (Acts 21:21; 2 Thess. 2:3), though it is not translated as "apostasy" in the King James Version. A related noun is used for a divorce (Matt. 5:31; 19:7; Mark 10:4). The corresponding Greek verb occurs nine times.

Acts 21:21 states an accusation made against Paul that he was leading Jews outside Palestine to abandon the law of Moses. Such apostasy was defined as failing to circumcise Jewish children and to observe distinctive Jewish customs.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Paul addressed those who had been deceived into believing that the day of the Lord had already come. He taught that an apostasy would precede the day of the Lord. The Spirit had explicitly revealed this falling away from the faith (1 Tim. 4:1). Such apostasy in the latter times will involve doctrinal deception, moral insensitivity, and ethical departures from God's truth.

Associated New Testament concepts include the parable of the soils, in which Jesus spoke of those who believe for a while but "fall away" in time of temptation (Luke 8:13). At the judgment, those who work iniquity will be told to "depart" (Luke 13:27). Paul "withdrew" from the synagogue in Ephesus (Acts 19:9) because of the opposition he found there, and he counseled Timothy to "withdraw" from those who advocate a different doctrine (1 Tim. 6:3-5). Hebrews speaks of falling away from the living God because of "an evil heart of unbelief" (3:12). Those who fall away cannot be renewed again to repentance (Heb. 6:6). Yet God is able to keep the believer from falling (Jude 24).

You can see it happening today...People Have turned their backs on GOD..They are falling away from the truth of Who He is..The lawlessness has increased, other religions have increased...The FALLING Away is increasing .
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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by 7dawn on Thu May 14, 2009 8:59 pm

Once again, I am catching up...I probably won't post much until I can sit down, read and take some notes. So far, I agree with what you are saying.

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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by 7dawn on Wed May 20, 2009 6:30 am

In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Paul addressed those who had been deceived into believing that the day of the Lord had already come. He taught that an apostasy would precede the day of the Lord. The Spirit had explicitly revealed this falling away from the faith (1 Tim. 4:1). Such apostasy in the latter times will involve doctrinal deception, moral insensitivity, and ethical departures from God's truth.

I agree Katrina, we are seeing this happening right now. As each day goes by people are falling further into the mire of deception, sin and total perversion. They prefer to have their ears tickled over hearing the truth. Everything has become relative and rationalized. When a Catholic University gives a pro-choice President a standing ovation, there is something wrong. And it isn't just him being pro-choice it is the embryonic stem cell research.

Okay, gonna stop here..I am heading into a political debate or a hot button topic. Very Happy

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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by FreeBird58 on Wed May 20, 2009 9:45 am

If this ruled out pretrib rapture would it not have to contradict 1Thessalonians 4:16?
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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by 7dawn on Wed May 20, 2009 10:28 am

I am not sure how it would contradict 1 Thess. 4:16. Care to explain?

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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by Sonshine on Wed May 20, 2009 11:09 am

FreeBird58 wrote:If this ruled out pretrib rapture would it not have to contradict 1Thessalonians 4:16?

I don't see any contradictions. Could you elaborate?

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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by 7dawn on Wed May 20, 2009 12:05 pm

Hey! I asked first...LOL

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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by FreeBird58 on Thu May 21, 2009 10:22 am

13Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.


This is speaking of the rapture. Notice we will meet the Lord in the clouds ...not on earth. IMHO..I also don't believe anyone other than Gods children will hear the trumpet call because Jesus said his children would know his voice. The actual second coming will take place when Jesus sets foot on the Mt. of Olives 7 years after the rapture.
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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by Sonshine on Thu May 21, 2009 10:28 am

Oh, no doubt there's going to be a rapture, I'm just don't think it will be pre-trib.

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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by FreeBird58 on Thu May 21, 2009 10:44 am

The church is mentioned 19 times in the 2nd and 3rd chapters of Revelation. In chapter 4 the church goes silent because it has been raptured out and does'nt appear again until chapter19.

Here is a little something I got from sermon central, a little something else to ponder.

6 Reasons for a Pre-tribulation Rapture:
1. Not one time is the church mentioned in a Bible text discussing the tribulation
2. In all the writings of Paul, the church is never mentioned in connection with the tribulation or wrath to come.
3. The church has already been judged at Calvary [the purpose of tribulation is judgment!]
4. The pictures of Enoch/Lot, etc. [all Bible types picture pre-tribulation]
5. Reelation 19 pictures the church in Heaven during the tribulation.
6. The coming of Christ for His saints is always pictured as sudden and unexpected [imminent]
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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by FreeBird58 on Thu May 21, 2009 10:51 am

1Thessalonians 1:10 also tells us that God's children have not been appointed to wrath. I really don't see how the church could be here during tribulation.
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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by Sonshine on Thu May 21, 2009 12:27 pm

It's true that God's children are not appointed to wrath. What I believe is in a pre-wrath rapture. A good book on it was written by Marvin Rosenthal called the Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church. Here's some links that lay it out:

http://www.watchmanbiblestudy.com/biblestudies/Definitions/Def_Prewrath.htm

http://www.rap-con.com/signs/pre-wrath-rapture

There are many more out there.

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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by FreeBird58 on Fri May 22, 2009 4:17 am

This is what Paul says in

Rom.1

16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[c] just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."[d]
God's Wrath Against Mankind


18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


The people he speaks of here are still present today and will remain till the end . So would this not mean the apostacy will remain till the end also? I checked out those links and I see that one guy wants you to put away all preconceived notions and listen to his opinion. Can't remember if it was the same one but it was also said that anbody who believed the Church left in Rev.ch.4 was just wrong . a bit brash to say the least. I will ask here as it will be much easier to get the answer , in the pre-wrath rapture stance, just exactly when is it the Church is raptured out? I know this will be one of those topics where we will end up agreeing to disagree but I'm sure the discussion will be enlightning to say the least.
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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by Sonshine on Fri May 22, 2009 10:20 am

The Church is raptured out before the wrath of God. Maybe this link will explain it better: http://prewrathministries.org/millin.html

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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by FreeBird58 on Sat May 23, 2009 11:24 am

I have taken the time to examine the last link you provided. While this paints a pretty picture, there are some things I can't agree with. I'm not sure where he got his info on what pre-trib people believe or ASSUME as he says but the ones I know differ greatly. The easiest way I can adress is this.

1.
The first assumptions is that the 70th Week is only for the Jewish Nation: Israel and the church are separate entities and God cannot work with both at the same time. The Old Testament is for Jews only. I have heard it stated that when Jesus arose from the dead the Jewish clock stopped and the Gentile clock started. When the 70th Week arrives, the Gentile clock will stop and the Jewish clock will start once again. This assumption is based on the scripture in Luke 21...

<BLOCKQUOTE>Luke 21:23 (NIV) How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. {24} They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (emphasis added)
</BLOCKQUOTE>This is an assumption because this reasoning does not hold out in scripture. For instance, on the day of Pentecost, the Apostle Peter spoke to the crowd and applied Old Testament prophecy to describe what was going on with the people who would become the new Christian church.

<BLOCKQUOTE>Acts 2:15 (NIV) These men are not drunk, as you suppose. It's only nine in the morning! {16} No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: {17} "`In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. {18} Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. {19} I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. {20} The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. {21} And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.'
</BLOCKQUOTE>Furthermore, he quotes the Old Testament prophecy regarding the Day of the Lord - which should be an exclusively Jewish prophecy - and states that on that day "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."


I don't assume this at all. It applies to all. What was Peter supposed to quote from? The Old Testament was all there was. The jews all knew the writing of Joel and Peter was calling it to their rememberence. Why should it be an exclusive Jewish prophecy? Is Jesus not for all?

2.
The second assumption is that Matthew chapter 24 was written specifically for the Jews. This is an assumption because it is not explicitly stated in scripture and it allows the reader to ignore this passage as irrelevant. We would not allow anyone to blatantly ignore any other passage in this same way

Here again, his opinion. This clearly explains the things that will be taking place before the end of the age. Something else he twisted just a bit is what he says about gathering the elect refering to a second rapture. This is what Jesus says in Mat24:30

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

Note he says from the four winds , from one end of the Heavens to the other. Not from the earth. This supports the view that we are in Heaven ,not a second rapture.

3
The third assumption is that Revelation 4:1 signifies the rapture.

<BLOCKQUOTE>Rev 4:1 (NIV) After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like a trumpet said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”
</BLOCKQUOTE>The Apostle John is exiled on the isle of Patmos, and Jesus appears to him in visions and instructs him to write down what he sees. In chapter four, John is told to "come up here" to heaven where his vision continues. Most who hold the Pre-Tribulation view see the words "come up here" as signifying the rapture - the catching away into heaven. The door is open in heaven and the voice is like a trumpet. The problem is that this too, is an assumption. The scripture does not indicate, in any way, this symbolism..

I do not assume this for the reasons he mentions. I "Believe" this because the Church is not mentioned after this. If the Church was going to have to stay until the sixth seal was broken don't you think we would at least get a mention? Besides I stand on the Word that says we are not appointed to wrath. Why would God have his faithful remain through the first 5 seals?

4[quote][/quo
In 2 Thessalonians 2:7, the "one who holds him back" is mentioned (in the KJV he is called the "restrainer") as one who holds back the Antichrist from being revealed until the proper time.

<BLOCKQUOTE>2 Thess 2:6-8 (NIV) And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. {7} For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. {8} And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. (emphasis added)
</BLOCKQUOTE>Those who hold to a Pre-Tribulation view adamantly insist that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit. Therefore, at the rapture He is taken out of the way with the church allowing the Antichrist to be revealed to the world. This, too, is an assumption because scripture does not identify this one "who holds back."[quote]

Hear again I don't know where he got this. The restrainer is NOT the Holy Spirit. It's the church and when the church is raptured out the Antichrist can take over.

5
We have already mentioned the fifth assumption, it is that the 144,000 Jews sealed in Revelation 7 become evangelists. This is an assumption because nowhere is this stated

How much assumption does this really take?

Rev.7:4
4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.[quote]

All the tribes of Israel. I don't know what else they could have been other than Jews, unless of course you assume otherwise.

6
The last assumption is the because of the Jewish evangelists, the greatest revival in history takes place during the 70th Week. This is an assumption because nowhere is there any indication that this revival takes place. It is assumed to explain the presence of the multitude that follows.


I have already stated that the Holy Spirit did'nt leave with the Church. The revival is very real because because the multitude found before the throne were as John said . Those who came out of the great tribulation. This would be those who refused the mark of the beast. These are the people this guy totaly neglects to mention. If you leave these people out of the equation then his opinion could play . Scripture clearly tells us not to add to or take away from.

Sorry this was long but I had to take it point by point becaus I don't know any pre=tribs that make the assumptions he speaks of. I cannot speak for anybody but me and me only.
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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by Miss Lillia on Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:40 am

FreeBird58 wrote:1Thessalonians 1:10 also tells us that God's children have not been appointed to wrath. I really don't see how the church could be here during tribulation.

I think the wrath isn't the tribulation, but the judgement.
As far as I understand, the rapture will take place right before God's wrath is poured out, but during the tribulation..
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Re: Universal apostasy (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4)

Post by Sonshine on Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:20 am

Miss Lillia, that is what I believe from my studies. Many Christians don't believe they will see any of the tribulation period, but I believe the beginning of the tribulation period is not God's wrath, but Satan's. God's wrath comes later and before his wrath is poured out the rapture will take place.

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